[frers-list]Fwd: Cored Hull Issues?
Arthur Kelley
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:16:45 -0400
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Actually from Frank's excerpt which I believe was from Jack Horner's =
review, I believe the bottom is cored, but I do not know this for a =
fact.
I can tell you that the Tartan 10 class is fraught with problems with =
hulls delaminating as they were built in rush, and the builder really =
skimped on resin in the layup, partly to minimize weight (7500 lbs?). A =
friend of mine bought one of these as a project, and what a project it =
was. As Frank and Jack point out, the quality of the original =
construction is key!
That said, if you take a collision below the waterline, or install a new =
through hull fitting, make absolutely sure you yoju properly treat the =
interior of the hole with epoxy resin to seal the core. Of course you =
are unlikely ever to need to drill a new hole in the bottom.
On the other hand, people regularly change deck fittings. Most builders =
core the topsides and deck to reduce weight and lower the center of =
gravity. As Jack points out in the article, a responsible builder uses =
a plywood core in areas where winches and high-strain items are =
installed to reduce compression issues, and to reduce the effects of any =
water intrusion into the core. If you climb into the lazerette on a =
sunny day, you can see the placement of the plywood as shadows in the =
deck.
Have the boat surveyed by a responsible surveyor. He needs to tap the =
full and deck with a plastic faced mallet to check for delamination, and =
use a moisture meter all over. There is a reasonable liklihood of =
moisture in the deck near the shrouds as that area works quite a bit =
(common to all cored decks). This is not a bad repair job if it ever =
needs to be done, not like a bottom. A couple of owners have reported =
doing this.
The other area I have heard of as being a problem is the mast step. =
Problems there tend to be obvious. Later boats were modified slightly, =
and a retrofit was offered by Carroll Marine to change the loading on =
the step. Look for a short shroud below deck tieing the deck to the =
mast. Not absolutely required, but it's presence indicates the =
modification was made.
In all, among boats of the same age and category (racer/cruiser), the =
boats are very well built, well respected, and holding their value well. =
The problems we've discussed on this forum (which you can read in the =
archives) are all pretty typical, and fewer than most similar boats.
I have only known of one Frers 33 that had a significant problem. I =
personally walked the deck and felt the softness. I rejected the boat =
out of hand. The person who bought the boat a couple of years later, =
got it at a good price and did a complete refit.
Good luck with your decision, and keep in touch if you move forward with =
the purchase.
Art
----- Original Message -----=20
From: FRANCIS ALBERT=20
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Fwd: Cored Hull Issues?
I'm not sure if the Frers 33 had core material below the water =
line but I don't believe it did. Below is a portion of a review of the =
Frers 33.=20
The hull and deck of the Frers 33 were built utilizing a =
composite construction of fiberglass and resin laminates on either side =
of a core material. The hull is cored with balsa throughout. Because =
balsa is subject to failure under high compression loads, deck areas =
subject to high compression loads are cored with plywood, and other deck =
areas are cored with balsa for its lighter weight.=20
When core material is introduced into a fiberglass composite, =
production quality control becomes considerably more important. Carroll =
Marine Ltd. has considerable experience building boats utilizing core =
materials and, for the most part, seems to do an outstanding job. My =
experience with the Frers 33 has shown no problems with the hull =
composites, although I have noted some failures of the athwart ship =
floor between the head and the hanging locker and some secondary bonding =
failures at the main structure bulkhead port and starboard of the mast. =
My experience has shown mild to moderate delamination and moisture =
penetration of the decks which further emphasizes the absolute necessity =
for properly mounting deck hardware on any cored deck.=20
--- On Thu, 9/3/09, Mark Dixon <econmar@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Mark Dixon <econmar@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Fwd: Cored Hull Issues?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 5:12 PM
Hi Jeremy. In looking at those photos in the article, I see =
issues where the author only used info that supports his theories. To =
wit, look at the photo withthe diamond plate non skid..... I haven't =
seen any like thatsince a 70s vintage Taylorcraft! (Ugh). I wouldn't be =
overly concerned about generic into but more about the boat you're =
looking at, and its survey.
Where or what boat are you looking at? Where do you sail?
If I'm not mistaken, the F33 is balsa cored to the waterline =
and solid glass below.
Regards, Mark
_______________________________________________
frers-list mailing list
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
=20
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Actually from Frank's excerpt which I =
believe was=20
from Jack Horner's review, I believe the bottom is cored, but I do not =
know this=20
for a fact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>I can tell you that the Tartan 10 class =
is fraught=20
with problems with hulls delaminating as they were built in rush, and =
the=20
builder really skimped on resin in the layup, partly to minimize =
weight=20
(7500 lbs?). A friend of mine bought one of these as a project, =
and what a=20
project it was. As Frank and Jack point out, the quality of the =
original=20
construction is key!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>That said, if you take a collision =
below the=20
waterline, or install a new through hull fitting, make absolutely sure =
you yoju=20
properly treat the interior of the hole with epoxy resin to seal the =
core. =20
Of course you are unlikely ever to need to drill a new hole in the=20
bottom.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>On the other hand, people regularly =
change deck=20
fittings. Most builders core the topsides and deck to reduce =
weight and=20
lower the center of gravity. As Jack points out in the article, a=20
responsible builder uses a plywood core in areas where winches and =
high-strain=20
items are installed to reduce compression issues, and to reduce the =
effects of=20
any water intrusion into the core. If you climb into the lazerette =
on a=20
sunny day, you can see the placement of the plywood as shadows in the=20
deck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Have the boat surveyed by a responsible =
surveyor. He needs to tap the full and deck with a plastic faced =
mallet to=20
check for delamination, and use a moisture meter all over. There =
is a=20
reasonable liklihood of moisture in the deck near the shrouds as that =
area works=20
quite a bit (common to all cored decks). This is not a bad repair =
job if=20
it ever needs to be done, not like a bottom. A couple of owners =
have=20
reported doing this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>The other area I have heard of as being =
a problem=20
is the mast step. Problems there tend to be obvious. =
Later=20
boats were modified slightly, and a retrofit was offered by Carroll =
Marine to change the loading on the step. Look for a short =
shroud=20
below deck tieing the deck to the mast. Not absolutely required, =
but it's=20
presence indicates the modification was made.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>In all, among boats of the same age and =
category=20
(racer/cruiser), the boats are very well built, well respected, and =
holding=20
their value well. The problems we've discussed on this forum (which =
you can=20
read in the archives) are all pretty typical, and fewer than most =
similar=20
boats.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>I have only known of one Frers 33 that =
had a=20
significant problem. I personally walked the deck and felt =
the=20
softness. I rejected the boat out of hand. The person who =
bought the=20
boat a couple of years later, got it at a good price and did a complete=20
refit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Good luck with your decision, and keep =
in touch if=20
you move forward with the purchase.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Art</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net =
href=3D"mailto:fxalbert@prodigy.net">FRANCIS=20
ALBERT</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 03, =
2009 8:50=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list]Fwd: =
Cored Hull=20
Issues?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>I'm not sure if the Frers 33 had core =
material below the=20
water line but I don't believe it did. Below is=20
a portion of a review of the Frers 33. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The hull and deck of the Frers 33 were built utilizing a =
composite=20
construction of fiberglass and resin laminates on either side of =
a core=20
material. The hull is cored with balsa throughout. Because balsa =
is=20
subject to failure under high compression loads, deck areas =
subject to=20
high compression loads are cored with plywood, and other deck =
areas are=20
cored with balsa for its lighter weight. <BR><BR>When core =
material is=20
introduced into a fiberglass composite, production quality =
control=20
becomes considerably more important. Carroll Marine Ltd. has=20
considerable experience building boats utilizing core materials =
and, for=20
the most part, seems to do an outstanding job. My experience =
with the=20
Frers 33 has shown no problems with the hull composites, =
although I have=20
noted some failures of the athwart ship floor between the head =
and the=20
hanging locker and some secondary bonding failures at the main =
structure=20
bulkhead port and starboard of the mast. My experience has shown =
mild to=20
moderate delamination and moisture penetration of the decks =
which=20
further emphasizes the absolute necessity for properly mounting =
deck=20
hardware on any cored deck. <BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 9/3/09, Mark Dixon=20
<I><econmar@sbcglobal.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT><BR>From: Mark=20
Dixon <econmar@sbcglobal.net><BR>Subject: Re: =
[frers-list]Fwd:=20
Cored Hull Issues?<BR>To: =
frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR>Date:=20
Thursday, September 3, 2009, 5:12 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>Hi Jeremy. In looking at those =
photos in=20
the article, I see issues where the author only used info that =
supports his theories. To wit, look at the photo withthe =
diamond plate=20
non skid..... I haven't seen any like thatsince a 70s vintage=20
Taylorcraft! (Ugh). I wouldn't be overly concerned about =
generic=20
into but more about the boat you're looking at, and its=20
survey.<BR>Where or what boat are you looking at? Where do you =
sail?<BR>If I'm not mistaken, the F33 is balsa cored to the =
waterline=20
and solid glass below.<BR>Regards,=20
=
Mark<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>frers-list=20
mailing list<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list</A><=
BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>
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