[frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Bruton, Tom (GECAS)
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:11:03 -0400
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Many thanks Scott, what's the cost for a main, #3 and spin.
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of
scottamarino@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:07 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
You'll need a new main, a #3, and a spinnaker.
If the main has a year in it, start with the 3 or the spin.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
________________________________
From: "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>=20
Sender: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:57:57 -0400
To: <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
ReplyTo: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Dave, new boat owner here, so complete novice when it comes to what I
should have. Right now I have a 140 roller jib in OK condition, a 150
non-roller jib in brand new condition, and a main sail that is in okay
condition, but looks like it came off the Bounty - heavy and sagging.
Would go with your recommendation and if you need a 10th to get a price
break would be happy to sign up.
Tom
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of David Nauber
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:05 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Hi Tom, =20
If you'd be interested I am sure Jack would put your sail order in with
ours. The more we get the better and we were right on the edge for the
tenth sail we needed. Let me know and I'll talk to Jack. If you have a
different sales guy already, it's not a problem--he will get the proper
commission.=20
Regards,
Dave
--- On Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 2:11 PM
=09
=09
In Connecticut Art, so I think I qualify.
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Kelley
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:42 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
=09
=09
If you are in the NE region we can talk to our sales team and
see if they will accept. Heck, a Frers is a Frers, and a sail is a sail!
=09
Art Kelley
On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:47 AM, "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)"
<Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
=09
=09
Happily paid if I can get a sails deal like the one
you've negotiated!
Tom
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
<frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com>=20
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
<frers-list@lists.frers33.com>=20
Sent: Fri Oct 29 10:31:32 2010
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat=20
=09
=09
Chuckle. You know that Tom can't see the twinkle in you
eye or the tongue in your cheek........
=09
=09
________________________________
From: David Nauber <dnauber@yahoo.com>
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 2:42:50 PM
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
=09
=09
Welcome Tom,=20
Just be aware that class association dues for the rich guys with the
bigger boats are MUCH higher.
Regards,
Dave Nauber
Wolverine
--- On Thu, 10/28/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:20 AM
=09
=09
Gentlemen,
=20
There is a spy amongst you. I recently bought a Frers 36, (a
slightly older, slightly bigger and more IOR orientated version of your
own boats), and came across your email group during a "Frers" websearch
and immediately signed up. Although all this talk of one-design details,
and custom sail deals does not apply to me, the discussion on bulkhead
separations was informative, and I have enjoyed all your banter and feel
somewhat like a close cousin. Just wanted to announce myself, and if you
don't mind continue to enjoy your comments.
Best Regards
Tom Bruton
"Mystique" =20
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of Scott Marino
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:03 AM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
=09
=09
All this talk of stoves and weights is interesting but what I really
want to know is: =20
=20
When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you find it best to use the #3
with full main or reef the main and carry a bigger headsail? In the tug
of war between a flat boat and a boat that points as high as possible,
which is better?
=20
Has anyone ever used a #4?
=20
--- On Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "frers-list@lists.frers33.com"
<frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 8:31 AM
=09
=09
Ah, good point. I stand corrected! Always check with your local
authority! Remember we do have a designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I
don't know how many have been weighed but going below that would be a
clear cut PHRF violation as well.=20
Art Kelley
On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal Melanson <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com>
neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
=09
=09
"If you race only PHRF then the one design prescriptions
go out the window. " - Art Kelley
=20
I have to clarify that even PHRF discourages
modifications. There are serveral hundred pounds the previous owner and
I always wanted to strip out of Vapor Trail but never did because of the
spirit of the "as-built" statement in the PHRF rules, that combined with
never wanting to hear any excuses from the cutthroat SOBs we raced
against up here.
=20
Here is the excerpt from <http://phrfne.org/>
PHRFNE.org:
"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to handicap boats in an
as-built configuration. PHRF-NE will adjust the handicaps of boats that
have been altered from the as- built configuration to completely
compensate for any expected speed advantage. Variations must be reported
to the Chief Handicapper so that the Fleet can be more accurately
handicapped."
=09
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthur Kelley <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
=09
Oops - sorry I mis-spoke. The water heater is
only 15 lbs. It's spelled out in the rules.
=20
Art
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Arthur Kelley
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net> =20
To:
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om> frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:27
PM
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and
oven
Frank,
The weight would be 40 lbs and is on the
opposite side of the bulkhead of the ice box. I sure we would figure out
something if you came to a one design event. We definitely want an
inclusive fleet but want to protect all owners against someone who just
wants to beat the rules. If you race only PHRF then the one design
prescriptions go out the window. However to maintain resale and protect
the future owner if they want to do one design we suggest keeping
changes modest and reversable.=20
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, FRANCIS
ALBERT <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net>
fxalbert@prodigy.net> wrote:
=09
=09
=20
I think Arthur hits the spirt of the rule along with the letter of it.
However, on my boat I not only didn't get the water heater, I don't even
have the shelf he's talking about so yikes what kind of weight would I
be adding. Anyone know what the water heater weighs? =20
=20
Looks like I may not truck the boat up to Newport anytime soon.
=20
Frank Albert
=20
--- On Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur Kelley <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net>
akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om> frers-list@lists.frers33.com" <
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.=
c
om> frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 4:32 PM
=09
=09
Looking at the rules as spelled out in the Word doc on the site:
=09
5.
If the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel tank (40 lbs, @1/4
full) or oven (40 lbs excluding two burner stove top) have been
permanently moved, removed, or not obtained when the boat was built, a
weight equal to the item shall be affixed in its intended location
during all racing events.
A few important principles come out.=20
1. It does not allow that the stove can be removed, only the
oven. We can discuss how to handle a missing stove in another thread if
necessary.=20
2. The oven is assumed to be replaceable with 40 lbs of weight.=20
3. Substituted weight must be affixed in the intended location.=20
4. Anyone want to pull out their fuel tank?
#3 means that hot water heater substitute weight for example,
cannot be consolidated to the bilge, but must be in the lazarette on the
shelf where the heater would have been. With regards to the oven I
suspect it is generally agreed that the weight can be placed in the
space below the stove not necessarily bolted to the bottom of the stove.
However it should be noted that safety, not only the letter of the rules
suggest (require?) that the weights be affixed so that in the event of a
knock down that they do not become life threatening projectiles.=20
We need to be mindful that the one design rules are designed to
ensure that an owner who cruises the boat can remain competitive with
another boat which is used exclusively for racing. It is not designed to
be a strategy for removing a bunch of distributed weight and
consolidating it centerline below the waterline.=20
Thoughts?
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Neal Melanson <
<http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com>
<http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com>
neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
=09
=09
...lets all check the Class rules before we start on any
weight saving programs. I started a fire storm years ago over PBO
Backstays and Carbon Fibre Rudders.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Rod Stright <
<http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca>
<http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca>
<http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca>
<http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca>
StrightR@eastlink.ca> wrote:
=09
Anyone interested in purchasing an Origo stove
and oven for the Frers 33, like new condition seldom used. Intend to
replace with an Origo two burner stove, would consider a trade.
=20
Rod
Equinox
902-444-0016
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<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D052270903-30102010><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Many thanks Scott, what's the cost for a main, #3 =
and=20
spin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> =
frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>scottamarino@yahoo.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 =
11:07=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
[frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You'll need a new main, a #3, and a spinnaker.<BR>If the main =
has a=20
year in it, start with the 3 or the spin.<BR><BR>
<P>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T</P>
<HR>
<DIV><B>From: </B>"Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sender: </B>frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Date: </B>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:57:57 -0400</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B><frers-list@lists.frers33.com></DIV>
<DIV><B>ReplyTo: </B>frers-list@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D893075402-30102010><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Dave, new boat owner here, so complete novice when =
it comes to=20
what I should have. Right now I have a 140 roller jib in OK condition, a =
150=20
non-roller jib in brand new condition, and a main sail that is in okay=20
condition, but looks like it came off the Bounty - heavy and sagging. =
Would go=20
with your recommendation and if you need a 10th to get a price break =
would be=20
happy to sign up.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D893075402-30102010><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> =
frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David=20
Nauber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 5:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [frers-list] keeping =
the=20
boat flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>Hi Tom, =20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you'd be interested I am sure Jack would put your sail =
order in=20
with ours. The more we get the better and we were right on the =
edge for=20
the tenth sail we needed. Let me know and I'll talk to Jack. If =
you have a=20
different sales guy already, it's not a problem--he will get the =
proper=20
commission.=20
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dave<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS)=20
<I><Tom.Bruton@gecas.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:=20
Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com><BR>Subject: RE: =
[frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR>To:=20
frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR>Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, =
2:11=20
PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv538405042>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3Dyiv538405042626570918-29102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>In Connecticut Art, so I =
think I=20
qualify.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us =
class=3Dyiv538405042OutlookMessageHeader=20
align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> =
frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Arthur=20
Kelley<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 1:42 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list] =
keeping=20
the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If you are in the NE region we can talk to our sales team =
and see=20
if they will accept. Heck, a Frers is a Frers, and a sail is a=20
sail!<BR><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:47 AM, "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" =
<<A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DTom.Bruton@gecas.com" rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:Tom.Bruton@gecas.com">Tom.Bruton@gecas.com</A>>=20
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dnavy size=3D2 face=3DArial>Happily paid if =
I can get a=20
sails deal like the one you've =
negotiated!<BR>Tom</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2 width=3D"100%">
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From</B>: <A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@li=
sts.frers33.com</A>=20
<<A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@li=
sts.frers33.com</A>>=20
<BR><B>To</B>: <A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>=20
<<A href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>>=20
<BR><B>Sent</B>: Fri Oct 29 10:31:32 2010<BR><B>Subject</B>: =
Re:=20
[frers-list] keeping the boat flat <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV>Chuckle. You know that Tom can't see the twinkle in =
you eye=20
or the tongue in your cheek........<BR></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT=20
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David =
Nauber=20
<<A href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Ddnauber@yahoo.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:dnauber@yahoo.com">dnauber@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPA=
N=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank =
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com"></A><A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A><BR><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thu, October 28, =
2010=20
2:42:50 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>=20
RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>Welcome Tom,=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Just be aware that class association dues for the =
rich guys=20
with the bigger boats are MUCH higher.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dave Nauber</DIV>
<DIV>Wolverine<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/28/10, Bruton, =
Tom=20
(GECAS) <I><<A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DTom.Bruton@gecas.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:Tom.Bruton@gecas.com">Tom.Bruton@gecas.com</A>></I><=
/B>=20
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:=20
Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <<A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DTom.Bruton@gecas.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:Tom.Bruton@gecas.com">Tom.Bruton@gecas.com</A>><BR>S=
ubject:=20
RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com"></A><A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A><BR>Date:=20
Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:20 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Gentlemen,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>There is a spy =
amongst you. I=20
recently bought a Frers 36, (a slightly older, =
slightly bigger=20
and more IOR orientated version of your own boats), =
and came=20
across your email group during a "Frers" websearch and =
immediately signed up. Although all this talk of =
one-design=20
details, and custom sail deals does not apply to =
me, the=20
discussion on bulkhead separations was informative, =
and I have=20
enjoyed all your banter and feel somewhat like a =
close=20
cousin. Just wanted to announce myself, and if you =
don't mind=20
continue to enjoy your =
comments.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>Best=20
Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>Tom =
Bruton</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753556390914-28102010><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
=
face=3DArial>"Mystique" </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us=20
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753OutlookMessageHeader=20
align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> <A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@li=
sts.frers33.com</A>=20
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
</B>Scott Marino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 28, =
2010=20
10:03 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com"></A><A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat =
flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>All this talk of stoves and weights is =
interesting=20
but what I really want to know is: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you =
find it=20
best to use the #3 with full main or reef the =
main and=20
carry a bigger headsail? In the tug of war =
between=20
a flat boat and a boat that points as high as =
possible,=20
which is better?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Has anyone ever used a #4?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur =
Kelley=20
<I><<A =
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A>></I=
></B>=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:=20
Arthur Kelley <<A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A>><BR=
>Subject:=20
Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven<BR>To: =
"<A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>"=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>><BR>Date:=20
Thursday, October 28, 2010, 8:31 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV =
id=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234>
<DIV>Ah, good point. I stand corrected! =
Always=20
check with your local authority! Remember we =
do have a=20
designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I don't know =
how=20
many have been weighed but going below that =
would be a=20
clear cut PHRF violation as well. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal =
Melanson=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmai=
l.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:neal.melanson@gmail.com">neal.melanson@gmail.com</A>>=
;=20
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>"If you race only PHRF then the one =
design=20
prescriptions go out the window. " - Art=20
Kelley</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have to clarify that even PHRF=20
discourages modifications. There =
are=20
serveral hundred pounds the previous =
owner and=20
I always wanted to strip out of Vapor Trail =
but=20
never did because of the spirit of the =
"as-built"=20
statement in the PHRF rules, that combined =
with=20
never wanting to hear any excuses from =
the=20
cutthroat SOBs we raced against up =
here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is the excerpt from <A=20
href=3D"http://phrfne.org/" rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank></A><A =
href=3D"http://PHRFNE.org"=20
rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank>PHRFNE.org</A>:</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to =
handicap=20
boats in an as-built configuration. PHRF-NE =
will=20
adjust the handicaps of boats that have been =
altered=20
from the as- built configuration to =
completely=20
compensate for any expected speed advantage. =
Variations must be reported to the Chief =
Handicapper=20
so that the Fleet can be more accurately=20
handicapped."<BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234gmail_quote>On=20
Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthur Kelley =
<SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A>></S=
PAN>=20
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; =
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"=20
=
class=3Dyiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Oops - =
sorry I=20
mis-spoke. The water heater is only =
15 lbs.=20
It's spelled out in the =
rules.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Art</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- =
Original=20
Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: =
#e4e4e4"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dakelley@optonline.net=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>Arthur =
Kelley</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt =
arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt =
arial"><B>Sent:</B>=20
Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:27 =
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt =
arial"><B>Subject:</B>=20
Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and =
oven</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The weight would be 40 lbs and is =
on the=20
opposite side of the bulkhead of the ice =
box. I=20
sure we would figure out something if =
you came=20
to a one design event. We definitely =
want an=20
inclusive fleet but want to protect all =
owners=20
against someone who just wants to beat =
the=20
rules. If you race only PHRF then the =
one design=20
prescriptions go out the window. However =
to=20
maintain resale and protect the future =
owner if=20
they want to do one design we suggest =
keeping=20
changes modest and =
reversable. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, =
FRANCIS=20
ALBERT <<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.n=
et"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.n=
et"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:fxalbert@prodigy.net">fxalbert@prodigy.net</A>>=20
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think Arthur hits the spirt of =
the rule=20
along with the letter of it. =
However, on=20
my boat I not only didn't get the water =
heater,=20
I don't even have the shelf he's talking =
about=20
so yikes what kind of weight would I be=20
adding. Anyone know what the water =
heater=20
weighs? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Looks like I may not truck the boat =
up to=20
Newport anytime soon.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- On <B>Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur =
Kelley=20
<I><<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A>></I=
></B>=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px =
solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:=20
Arthur Kelley <<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.=
net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A>><BR=
>Subject:=20
Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and =
oven<BR>To: "<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>"=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.=
com</A>><BR>Date:=20
Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 4:32 =
PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Looking at the rules as spelled out =
in the=20
Word doc on the site:</DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: =
18px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 54px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic; MARGIN-TOP: =
0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 12px">5.</DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FONT-STYLE: =
italic; FONT-SIZE: 18px">If=20
the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel =
tank (40=20
lbs, @1/4 full) or oven (40 lbs =
excluding two=20
burner stove top) have been permanently =
moved,=20
removed, or not obtained when the boat =
was=20
built, a weight equal to the item shall =
be=20
affixed in its intended location during =
all=20
racing events.</SPAN></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A few important principles come=20
out. </DIV>
<DIV>1. It does not allow that the stove =
can be=20
removed, only the oven. We can discuss =
how to=20
handle a missing stove in another thread =
if=20
necessary. </DIV>
<DIV>2. The oven is assumed to be =
replaceable=20
with 40 lbs of weight. </DIV>
<DIV>3. Substituted weight must be =
affixed in=20
the intended location. </DIV>
<DIV>4. Anyone want to pull out their =
fuel=20
tank?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#3 means that hot water heater =
substitute=20
weight for example, cannot be =
consolidated to=20
the bilge, but must be in the lazarette =
on the=20
shelf where the heater would have been. =
With=20
regards to the oven I suspect it is =
generally=20
agreed that the weight can be placed in =
the=20
space below the stove not necessarily =
bolted to=20
the bottom of the stove. However it =
should be=20
noted that safety, not only the letter =
of the=20
rules suggest (require?) that the =
weights be=20
affixed so that in the event of a knock =
down=20
that they do not become life threatening =
projectiles. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We need to be mindful that the one =
design=20
rules are designed to ensure that an =
owner who=20
cruises the boat can remain competitive =
with=20
another boat which is used exclusively =
for=20
racing. It is not designed to be a =
strategy for=20
removing a bunch of distributed weight =
and=20
consolidating it centerline below the=20
waterline. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, =
Neal=20
Melanson <<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmai=
l.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmai=
l.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmai=
l.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmai=
l.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:neal.melanson@gmail.com">neal.melanson@gmail.com</A>>=
;=20
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>...lets all check the Class rules =
before we=20
start on any weight saving =
programs. I=20
started a fire storm years ago over PBO=20
Backstays and Carbon Fibre =
Rudders.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, =
Rod=20
Stright <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.=
ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.=
ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.=
ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.=
ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.=
ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank></A><A=20
=
href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
=
ymailto=3D"mailto:StrightR@eastlink.ca">StrightR@eastlink.ca</A>></SPA=
N>=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; =
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV lang=3DEN-CA>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'; COLOR: =
#002060; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Anyone=20
interested in purchasing an Origo stove =
and oven=20
for the Frers 33, like new condition =
seldom=20
used. Intend to replace with an =
Origo two=20
burner stove, would consider a=20
trade.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
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