[frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Scott Marino
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT)
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If you're serious about racing Mystique, buy all your new headsails non-fur=
ling.=A0 You'll be much more competitive.=A0 Your racing crew can wrestle t=
hem up and down when you call for a sail change.
=A0
Much of your current inventory will become a cruising inventory within a ye=
ar or two.=A0 When you cruise the boat with friends and family you'll use y=
our current 140% furling=A0genoa (the #2) and your current mainsail.=A0 You=
'll have plenty of power and they're easy to use with novices and or a shor=
t handed crew.
--- On Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 11:31 PM
Her name is "Mystique" (formerly out of Port Milford, Ct), and I'll be keep=
ing her in Blackrock Harbour in Bridgeport Connecticut.
=A0
Complete novice question, # 3 roller or non?
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.fre=
rs33.com] On Behalf Of scottamarino@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:25 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
For the 33's, roughly $3,200 each with the high level discount. Buying them=
one off with no discount approx $4K each.
Your sails might be slightly more expensive since they're bigger.
We had an e-mail discussion thread earlier in the week with actual pricing =
in it. Check it out for more accuracy.
If you can control your baggy mainsail with outhaul and cunningham or have =
it re-cut a little flatter so it will go one season, you can focus your mon=
ey on the #3 and spin so at least you have a full working set of sails to r=
ace with.
Where do keep her and what's her name?
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>=20
Sender: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:11:03 -0400
To: <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
ReplyTo: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Many thanks Scott, what's the cost for a main, #3 and spin.
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.fre=
rs33.com] On Behalf Of scottamarino@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:07 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
You'll need a new main, a #3, and a spinnaker.
If the main has a year in it, start with the 3 or the spin.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>=20
Sender: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com=20
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:57:57 -0400
To: <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
ReplyTo: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Dave, new boat owner here, so complete novice when it comes to what I shoul=
d have. Right now I have a 140 roller jib in OK condition, a 150 non-roller=
jib in brand new condition, and a main sail that is in okay condition, but=
looks like it came off the Bounty - heavy and sagging. Would go with your =
recommendation and if you need a 10th to get a price break would be happy t=
o sign up.
Tom
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.fre=
rs33.com] On Behalf Of David Nauber
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:05 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Hi Tom,=A0=20
If you'd be interested I am sure Jack would put your sail order in with our=
s. The more we get the better and we were right on the edge for the tenth s=
ail we needed. Let me know and I'll talk to Jack. If you have a different s=
ales guy already, it's not a problem--he will get the proper commission.=20
Regards,
Dave
--- On Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 2:11 PM
In Connecticut Art, so I think I qualify.
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.fre=
rs33.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Kelley
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:42 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
If you are in the NE region we can talk to our sales team and see if they w=
ill accept. Heck, a Frers is a Frers, and a sail is a sail!
Art Kelley
On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:47 AM, "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> =
wrote:
Happily paid if I can get a sails deal like the one you've negotiated!
Tom
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com <frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m>=20
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>=20
Sent: Fri Oct 29 10:31:32 2010
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat=20
Chuckle.=A0 You know that Tom can't see the twinkle in you eye or the tongu=
e in your cheek........
From: David Nauber <dnauber@yahoo.com>
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 2:42:50 PM
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Welcome Tom,=20
Just be aware that class association dues for the rich guys with the bigger=
boats are MUCH higher.
Regards,
Dave Nauber
Wolverine
--- On Thu, 10/28/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> wrote:
From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com>
Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:20 AM
Gentlemen,
=A0
There is a spy amongst you. I recently bought a Frers 36, (a slightly older=
, slightly bigger and more IOR orientated version of your own boats), and c=
ame across your email group during a "Frers" websearch and immediately sign=
ed up. Although all this talk of one-design details,=A0and custom sail deal=
s does not apply to me, the discussion on bulkhead separations was informat=
ive, and I have enjoyed all your banter and=A0feel somewhat like a close co=
usin. Just wanted to announce myself, and if you don't mind continue to=A0e=
njoy your comments.
Best Regards
Tom Bruton
"Mystique"=A0=A0
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.fre=
rs33.com] On Behalf Of Scott Marino
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:03 AM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat
All this talk of stoves and weights is interesting but what I really want t=
o know is:=A0=20
=A0
When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you find it best to use the #3 with f=
ull main or reef the main and carry a bigger headsail?=A0 In the tug of war=
between a flat boat and a boat that points as high as possible, which is b=
etter?
=A0
Has anyone ever used a #4?
=A0
--- On Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "frers-list@lists.frers33.com" <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 8:31 AM
Ah, good point. I stand corrected! =A0Always check with your local authorit=
y! Remember we do have a designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I don't know how=
many have been weighed but going below that would be a clear cut PHRF viol=
ation as well.=A0
Art Kelley
On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal Melanson <neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
"If you race only PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the window.=
" - Art Kelley
=A0
I have to clarify that even PHRF discourages=A0modifications.=A0 There are =
serveral hundred=A0pounds the previous owner and I always wanted to strip o=
ut of Vapor Trail but never did because of the spirit of the "as-built" sta=
tement in the PHRF rules, that combined with never wanting to hear any excu=
ses=A0from the cutthroat SOBs we raced against up here.
=A0
Here is=A0the excerpt from PHRFNE.org:
"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to handicap boats in an as-built configurat=
ion. PHRF-NE will adjust the handicaps of boats that have been altered from=
the as- built configuration to completely compensate for any expected spee=
d advantage. Variations must be reported to the Chief Handicapper so that t=
he Fleet can be more accurately handicapped."
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrot=
e:
Oops - sorry I mis-spoke.=A0 The water heater is only 15 lbs. It's spelled =
out in the rules.
=A0
Art
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Arthur Kelley=20
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
Frank,
The weight would be 40 lbs and is on the opposite side of the bulkhead of t=
he ice box. I sure we would figure out something if you came to a one desig=
n event. We definitely want an inclusive fleet but want to protect all owne=
rs against someone who just wants to beat the rules. If you race only PHRF =
then the one design prescriptions go out the window. However to maintain re=
sale and protect the future owner if they want to do one design we suggest =
keeping changes modest and reversable.=A0
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, FRANCIS ALBERT <fxalbert@prodigy.net> wrote:
=A0
I think Arthur hits the spirt of the rule along with the letter of it.=A0 H=
owever, on my boat I not only didn't get the water heater, I don't even hav=
e the shelf he's talking about so yikes what kind of weight would I be addi=
ng.=A0 Anyone know what the water heater weighs?=A0=20
=A0
Looks like I may not truck the boat up to Newport anytime soon.
=A0
Frank Albert
=A0
--- On Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "frers-list@lists.frers33.com" <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 4:32 PM
Looking at the rules as spelled out in the Word doc on the site:
5.If the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel tank (40 lbs, @1/4 full) or oven=
(40 lbs excluding two burner stove top) have been permanently moved, remov=
ed, or not obtained when the boat was built, a weight equal to the item sha=
ll be affixed in its intended location during all racing events.
A few important principles come out.=A0
1. It does not allow that the stove can be removed, only the oven. We can d=
iscuss how to handle a missing stove in another thread if necessary.=A0
2. The oven is assumed to be replaceable with 40 lbs of weight.=A0
3. Substituted weight must be affixed in the intended location.=A0
4. Anyone want to pull out their fuel tank?
#3 means that hot water heater substitute weight for example, cannot be con=
solidated to the bilge, but must be in the lazarette on the shelf where the=
heater would have been. With regards to the oven I suspect it is generally=
agreed that the weight can be placed in the space below the stove not nece=
ssarily bolted to the bottom of the stove. However it should be noted that =
safety, not only the letter of the rules suggest (require?) that the weight=
s be affixed so that in the event of a knock down that they do not become l=
ife threatening projectiles.=A0
We need to be mindful that the one design rules are designed to ensure that=
an owner who cruises the boat can remain competitive with another boat whi=
ch is used exclusively for racing. It is not designed to be a strategy for =
removing a bunch of distributed weight and consolidating it centerline belo=
w the waterline.=A0
Thoughts?
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Neal Melanson <neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
...lets all check the Class rules before we start on any weight saving prog=
rams.=A0 I started a fire storm years ago over PBO Backstays and Carbon Fib=
re Rudders.
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Rod Stright <StrightR@eastlink.ca> wrote:
Anyone interested in purchasing an Origo stove and oven for the Frers 33, l=
ike new condition seldom used.=A0 Intend to replace with an Origo two burne=
r stove, would consider a trade.
=A0
Rod
Equinox
902-444-0016
=0A=0A=0A
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>If you're serious about racing Mystique,=
buy all your new headsails non-furling. You'll be much more competit=
ive. Your racing crew can wrestle them up and down when you call for =
a sail change.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Much of your current inventory will become a cruising inventory within=
a year or two. When you cruise the boat with friends and family you'=
ll use your current 140% furling genoa (the #2) and your current mains=
ail. You'll have plenty of power and they're easy to use with novices=
and or a short handed crew.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (G=
ECAS) <I><Tom.Bruton@gecas.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.co=
m><BR>Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR>To: frers-list@=
lists.frers33.com<BR>Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 11:31 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1028263787>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787605542703-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Her name is "Mystique" (formerly=
out of Port Milford, Ct), and I'll be keeping her in Blackrock Harbour in =
Bridgeport Connecticut.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787605542703-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787605542703-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Complete novice question, # 3 ro=
ller or non?</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787OutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=
=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>scottamar=
ino@yahoo.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 11:25 PM<BR><B>To:</=
B> frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list] keeping=
the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>For the 33's, roughly $3,200 each with the high level discount. =
Buying them one off with no discount approx $4K each.<BR>Your sails might b=
e slightly more expensive since they're bigger.<BR><BR>We had an e-mail dis=
cussion thread earlier in the week with actual pricing in it. Check it out =
for more accuracy.<BR><BR>If you can control your baggy mainsail with outha=
ul and cunningham or have it re-cut a little flatter so it will go one seas=
on, you can focus your money on the #3 and spin so at least you have a full=
working set of sails to race with.<BR><BR>Where do keep her and what's her=
name?<BR><BR>
<DIV>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T</DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><B>From: </B>"Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sender: </B>frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Date: </B>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:11:03 -0400</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B><frers-list@lists.frers33.com></DIV>
<DIV><B>ReplyTo: </B>frers-list@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787052270903-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Many thanks Scott, what's the co=
st for a main, #3 and spin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787OutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=
=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>scottamar=
ino@yahoo.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 11:07 PM<BR><B>To:</=
B> frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list] keeping=
the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You'll need a new main, a #3, and a spinnaker.<BR>If the main ha=
s a year in it, start with the 3 or the spin.<BR><BR>
<DIV>Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T</DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><B>From: </B>"Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <Tom.Bruton@gecas.com> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sender: </B>frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Date: </B>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:57:57 -0400</DIV>
<DIV><B>To: </B><frers-list@lists.frers33.com></DIV>
<DIV><B>ReplyTo: </B>frers-list@lists.frers33.com </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject: </B>RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787893075402-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dave, new boat owner here, so co=
mplete novice when it comes to what I should have. Right now I have a 140 r=
oller jib in OK condition, a 150 non-roller jib in brand new condition, and=
a main sail that is in okay condition, but looks like it came off the Boun=
ty - heavy and sagging. Would go with your recommendation and if you need a=
10th to get a price break would be happy to sign up.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787893075402-30102010><=
FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787OutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=
=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David Nau=
ber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 5:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B> frers-li=
st@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat f=
lat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>Hi Tom, =20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you'd be interested I am sure Jack would put your sail order in wit=
h ours. The more we get the better and we were right on the edge for the te=
nth sail we needed. Let me know and I'll talk to Jack. If you have a differ=
ent sales guy already, it's not a problem--he will get the proper commissio=
n.=20
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dave<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 10/29/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <I><Tom.Br=
uton@gecas.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <Tom.Bruton@gecas.co=
m><BR>Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR>To: frers-list@=
lists.frers33.com<BR>Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 2:11 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv53840504262657091=
8-29102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In Connecticut Art, =
so I think I qualify.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042OutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=
=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Arthur Ke=
lley<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 29, 2010 1:42 PM<BR><B>To:</B> frers-l=
ist@lists.frers33.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat =
flat<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If you are in the NE region we can talk to our sales team and see if t=
hey will accept. Heck, a Frers is a Frers, and a sail is a sail!<BR><BR>Art=
Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:47 AM, "Bruton, Tom (GECAS)" <<A rel=3Dn=
ofollow>Tom.Bruton@gecas.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2>Happily paid if I can get a s=
ails deal like the one you've negotiated!<BR>Tom</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From</B>: <A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list-admi=
n@lists.frers33.com</A> <<A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list-admin@lists.frers3=
3.com</A>> <BR><B>To</B>: <A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33.com=
</A> <<A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>> <BR><B>Sent=
</B>: Fri Oct 29 10:31:32 2010<BR><B>Subject</B>: Re: [frers-list] keeping =
the boat flat <BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"=
>
<DIV>Chuckle. You know that Tom can't see the twinkle in you eye or t=
he tongue in your cheek........<BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif"=
><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> David Nauber <<A r=
el=3Dnofollow>dnauber@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: b=
old">To:</SPAN></B> <A rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@list=
s.frers33.com</A><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> =
Thu, October 28, 2010 2:42:50 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Su=
bject:</SPAN></B> RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR></FONT><BR>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>Welcome Tom,=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Just be aware that class association dues for the rich guys with the b=
igger boats are MUCH higher.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dave Nauber</DIV>
<DIV>Wolverine<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/28/10, Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <I><<=
A rel=3Dnofollow>Tom.Bruton@gecas.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Bruton, Tom (GECAS) <<A rel=3Dnofollow>T=
om.Bruton@gecas.com</A>><BR>Subject: RE: [frers-list] keeping the boat f=
lat<BR>To: <A rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33=
.com</A><BR>Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:20 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv1110194753>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Gentlem=
en,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>=
</SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>There i=
s a spy amongst you. I recently bought a Frers 36, (a slightly older, sligh=
tly bigger and more IOR orientated version of your own boats), and came acr=
oss your email group during a "Frers" websearch and immediately signed up. =
Although all this talk of one-design details, and custom sail deals do=
es not apply to me, the discussion on bulkhead separations was informative,=
and I have enjoyed all your banter and feel somewhat like a close cou=
sin. Just wanted to announce myself, and if you don't mind continue to =
;enjoy your comments.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Best Re=
gards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Tom Bru=
ton</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv11101=
94753556390914-28102010><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>"Mystiq=
ue" </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv1110194753OutlookMessageHeader lan=
g=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> <A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list-admi=
n@lists.frers33.com</A> [mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] <B>On B=
ehalf Of </B>Scott Marino<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:03 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.f=
rers33.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list] keeping the boat flat<BR=
></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>All this talk of stoves and weights is interesting but what I really w=
ant to know is: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you find it best to use the #3 w=
ith full main or reef the main and carry a bigger headsail? In the tu=
g of war between a flat boat and a boat that points as high as possible, wh=
ich is better?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Has anyone ever used a #4?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur Kelley <I><<A rel=3Dnofollo=
w>akelley@optonline.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Arthur Kelley <<A rel=3Dnofollow>akelley=
@optonline.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven<BR>=
To: "<A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>" <<A rel=3Dnofol=
low>frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>><BR>Date: Thursday, October 28, 201=
0, 8:31 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234>
<DIV>Ah, good point. I stand corrected! Always check with your local =
authority! Remember we do have a designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I don't =
know how many have been weighed but going below that would be a clear cut P=
HRF violation as well. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal Melanson <<A href=3D"http://u=
s.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>neal.melanson@gmail.com</A>> w=
rote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>"If you race only PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the wi=
ndow. " - Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have to clarify that even PHRF discourages modifications. =
There are serveral hundred pounds the previous owner and I always wan=
ted to strip out of Vapor Trail but never did because of the spirit of the =
"as-built" statement in the PHRF rules, that combined with never wanting to=
hear any excuses from the cutthroat SOBs we raced against up here.</D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is the excerpt from <A href=3D"http://phrfne.org/" target=3D=
_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://phrfne.org/" target=3D_blank re=
l=3Dnofollow>PHRFNE.org</A>:</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to handicap boats in an as-built confi=
guration. PHRF-NE will adjust the handicaps of boats that have been altered=
from the as- built configuration to completely compensate for any expected=
speed advantage. Variations must be reported to the Chief Handicapper so t=
hat the Fleet can be more accurately handicapped."<BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234gmail_quote>=
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthur Kelley <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=
=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" t=
arget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A>=
<A rel=3Dnofollow>akelley@optonline.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dyiv1028263787yiv538405042yiv1110194753yiv740517234gmail=
_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oops - sorry I mis-spoke. The water =
heater is only 15 lbs. It's spelled out in the rules.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Art</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGI=
N-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=
=3Dakelley@optonline.net href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>Arthur Kelley</A=
> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dfrers-list@lists.frer=
s33.com href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@l=
ists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.m=
c522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D=
_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A=
> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:=
27 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list]Origo stove=
and oven</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The weight would be 40 lbs and is on the opposite side of the bulkhead=
of the ice box. I sure we would figure out something if you came to a one =
design event. We definitely want an inclusive fleet but want to protect all=
owners against someone who just wants to beat the rules. If you race only =
PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the window. However to mainta=
in resale and protect the future owner if they want to do one design we sug=
gest keeping changes modest and reversable. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, FRANCIS ALBERT <<A href=3D"http://=
us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" target=3D_bla=
nk rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofo=
llow>fxalbert@prodigy.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think Arthur hits the spirt of the rule along with the letter of it.=
However, on my boat I not only didn't get the water heater, I don't =
even have the shelf he's talking about so yikes what kind of weight would I=
be adding. Anyone know what the water heater weighs? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Looks like I may not truck the boat up to Newport anytime soon.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- On <B>Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur Kelley <I><<A href=3D"http://us.mc5=
22.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank re=
l=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
akelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow=
>akelley@optonline.net</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Arthur Kelley <<A href=3D"http://us.mc52=
2.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=
=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Da=
kelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>=
akelley@optonline.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and o=
ven<BR>To: "<A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers=
-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http=
://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" ta=
rget=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33=
.com</A>" <<A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfre=
rs-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"ht=
tp://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" =
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A
rel=3Dnofollow>frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>><BR>Date: Wednesday, Oc=
tober 27, 2010, 4:32 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Looking at the rules as spelled out in the Word doc on the site:</DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18px; FONT-FAMILY: Times">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 54px">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; FONT-ST=
YLE: italic">5.</DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FON=
T-STYLE: italic">If the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel tank (40 lbs, @1/=
4 full) or oven (40 lbs excluding two burner stove top) have been permanent=
ly moved, removed, or not obtained when the boat was built, a weight equal =
to the item shall be affixed in its intended location during all racing eve=
nts.</SPAN></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A few important principles come out. </DIV>
<DIV>1. It does not allow that the stove can be removed, only the oven. We =
can discuss how to handle a missing stove in another thread if necessary.&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2. The oven is assumed to be replaceable with 40 lbs of weight. <=
/DIV>
<DIV>3. Substituted weight must be affixed in the intended location. <=
/DIV>
<DIV>4. Anyone want to pull out their fuel tank?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#3 means that hot water heater substitute weight for example, cannot b=
e consolidated to the bilge, but must be in the lazarette on the shelf wher=
e the heater would have been. With regards to the oven I suspect it is gene=
rally agreed that the weight can be placed in the space below the stove not=
necessarily bolted to the bottom of the stove. However it should be noted =
that safety, not only the letter of the rules suggest (require?) that the w=
eights be affixed so that in the event of a knock down that they do not bec=
ome life threatening projectiles. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We need to be mindful that the one design rules are designed to ensure=
that an owner who cruises the boat can remain competitive with another boa=
t which is used exclusively for racing. It is not designed to be a strategy=
for removing a bunch of distributed weight and consolidating it centerline=
below the waterline. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Neal Melanson <<A href=3D"http://u=
s.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=
=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com"=
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.c=
om/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>=
</A><A rel=3Dnofollow>neal.melanson@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>...lets all check the Class rules before we start on any weight saving=
programs. I started a fire storm years ago over PBO Backstays and Ca=
rbon Fibre Rudders.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Rod Stright <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A hr=
ef=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" =
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A>=
<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink=
.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=
></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eas=
tlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A rel=3Dnofollow>StrightR@eas=
tlink.ca</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-L=
EFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV lang=3DEN-CA>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Anyone interested in purchasing an Origo stove and oven for the Frers 33, l=
ike new condition seldom used. Intend to replace with an Origo two bu=
rner stove, would consider a trade.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
</SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Rod</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Equinox</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
902-444-0016</SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>=
</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TB=
ODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DI=
V></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD>=
</TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A =
--0-1663674900-1288410422=:64650--