[frers-list]Frers 38
FRANCIS ALBERT
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
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Courtney,
=A0
Wing keels came into=A0vogue with the 1983 =A0Americas Cup victory by Austr=
alia II.=A0
The problem is that the wing keel on that Americas Cup boat was incredibly =
perfect for just that boat which gave it the advantage in the cup.=A0 That=
=A0is not at all the case with mass produced wing keels.=A0 The mass produc=
ed wing keels are little more than shoal draft boats with a wing of sorts a=
ttached for additional ballast.
=A0
As such you don't see them anymore.=A0 They were a fad and they produced a =
shoal draft, which a lot of people loved.=A0 What they didn't provide was t=
he performance that was implied.
=A0
Frank Albert
--- On Fri, 8/19/11, Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Frers 38
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Friday, August 19, 2011, 11:49 AM
How are the wing keel 33s regarded vis-a-vis other keels, please ?
Thanks,
Courtney
=A0
On 8/19/2011 10:04 AM, Arthur Kelley wrote:=20
That is correct. She overwinters near me. This boat has a wing keel and tha=
t may have been much more common on the 38 than the 33. =A0I've never saile=
d on her. He previously raced a Tartan 10.=A0
Art Kelley
On Aug 19, 2011, at 9:46 AM, lessera@aol.com wrote:
There is a 38 called Tomahawk in Northport Harbor . =A0I am pretty sure he =
is a member of the Northport Yacht Club and the name may be Vaughn=20
Arnie
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Stright <StrightR@eastlink.ca>
To: frers-list <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:45 am
Subject: [frers-list]Frers 38
Is anyone here familiar with the Frers 38? It looks much like the 33 but
has anyone sailed on one or seen them sail or know anyone that has one.
Rod
Equinox
-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of
frers-list-request@lists.frers33.com
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:02 AM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: frers-list digest, Vol 1 #456 - 2 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?
(FRANCIS ALBERT)
2. Re: complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?
(FRANCIS ALBERT)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: FRANCIS ALBERT <fxalbert@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would
you make ?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Reply-To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
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Courtney,
=3DA0
Below are the things I'd change on the boat and why.=3DA0 Have fun and good=
l=3D
uck.
=3DA0
Frank Albert
RELENTLESS 41621
=3DA0
1.=3DA0 Deeper keel about a foot more, all lead, which would add around 300=
l=3D
bs to the bottom of the keel.=3DA0 The boat is tender and in a blow you've =
ne=3D
arly always got the toe rail in the water.=3DA0 Or shorten the mast which w=
ou=3D
ld mean all new sails all new rigging but less heel and less power.=3DA0 I'=
m =3D
pretty sure the boom is set on the mast and cannot be adjusted so you'd pro=
=3D
bably need a whole new rig to keep the boom at the same height.
=3DA0
2.=3DA0 Larger rudder/Redesigned rudder.=3DA0 The rudder on the Frers 33 lo=
oks =3D
like a normal size rudder but it is=3DA0undersized.=3DA0 The boat will roun=
d up=3D
pretty fast.=3DA0 I once rounded up so hard we wound up going the other di=
re=3D
ction.
=3DA0
3.=3DA0 Side windows that open.=3DA0 There is NO cross ventilation on that =
boat=3D
.=3DA0 If your going to spend some bucks then remove the plastic windows th=
at=3D
are there now.=3DA0 Glass up the holes and finish it so it looks like it n=
ev=3D
er had any windows.=3DA0 Then cut out and=3DA0install 4 windows on each sid=
e th=3D
at open which will include one in the bathroom.=3DA0 Boy that would be swee=
t.
=3DA0
4.=3DA0 If this redo includes the interior make the bathroom bigger/wider.=
=3DA0=3D
Can't go any further into the boat with the head but it could stand to be =
=3D
a bit wider.=3DA0 Anyone ever notice you have to turn sideways to get into =
th=3D
e bathroom.=3DA0 Your shoulders won't fit through the door.=3DA0
=3DA0
5.=3DA0 If you're redoing the toe rail track that runs from the back of the=
b=3D
oat to just forward of the side stays then I'd change that from the current=
=3D
1/2 inch (slide right off the deck toe=3DA0rail) to the taller 1 and 3/16t=
hs=3D
inch.=3DA0 Now that would be a toe rail that you could really lay your foo=
t =3D
up to and the top of the track is flat so if folks were sitting on the rail=
=3D
it wouldn't be digging into the backs of their legs.=3DA0 I'd install it w=
it=3D
h some pre-cut holes in the bottom so water could drain over the side witho=
=3D
ut having to make it's way all the way to the back of the boat.=3DA0 You'll=
h=3D
ave to have the entire track bent to match the boat.
=3DA0
6.=3DA0 If all you're ever going to do is cruise then add A/C.=3DA0 There's=
roo=3D
m under the cockpit on the starboard side and it will make life worth livin=
=3D
g on those REALLY hot days at the dock.
=3DA0
7.=3DA0 Add a 2nd VHF antenna at the top of the mast.=3DA0 One for the VHF =
and =3D
one that can be used for an FM RADIO and split so an ADS can be added to th=
=3D
e boat.=3DA0 Most of the=3DA0Chart Plotters out there on the market today c=
an a=3D
ccept ADS info and overlay the boats on your plotter.=3DA0 Along with that =
th=3D
ey can tell you your closest point that you will come together and warn you=
=3D
if that means a collision.=3DA0 I have one and they can see over the horiz=
on=3D
because there using the masthead antenna.=3DA0 They're REALLY great at nig=
ht=3D
!
=3DA0
8.=3DA0 Replace the wheel and all parts.=3DA0 It looks like it Edison but i=
t's =3D
not and the pulley's under the deck are set in a cast aluminum bracket that=
=3D
will eventually fail.=3DA0 One of mine failed, on a windy day.=3DA0 Also h=
ave =3D
a custom made tiller made for the boat that will go OVER the wheel and the =
=3D
pedestal.=3DA0 Trying to drive that boat with the small emergency tiller th=
at=3D
came with the boat was BRUTAL.=3DA0 We had to go no more than 800 yards ba=
ck=3D
to my slip and it took two people on that tiller with it constantly trying=
=3D
to rip its self out of your hands.=3DA0 Very scary, and I cannot imagine w=
ha=3D
t it would be like in any large body of water with waves.
9.=3DA0 Add a nice cockpit canopy.=3DA0 Shade is a wonderful thing on a lon=
g ho=3D
t sunny day.
=3DA0
10.=3DA0 If it doesn't already have one an auto pilot.
--- On Mon, 8/15/11, Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you m=
=3D
ake ?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 4:14 PM
Ahoy !
I am about to undertake a complete refit of a Frers33 and would appreciate =
=3D
all input regarding
changes you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you had the sa=
=3D
me opportunity.
Any suggestions regarding materials and technique regarding typical mainten=
=3D
ance and restorative
procedures are welcome as well, of course.
In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck reinforcement, ma=
=3D
st support, mast reconfiguration,
and rigging, both standing and running, and rudder reinstallation... are of=
=3D
particular concern,
as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to grief over a c=
=3D
hoice that could easily now be made
that would have made a much more salutary difference in time to come.
An additional note is that the standing rigging is what I assume was the or=
=3D
iginal 'rod' rigging.
My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.
Has anyone shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?
Has anyone gone outboard with the chainplates ?
Please include intended consequences of any suggested alterations.
Hoping to not cause a firestorm from Frers purists=3DA0 :-)
In any case, no alterations have=3DA0 been yet made,...
Appreciatively,
Courtney Thomas
-- Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power,
have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing
government, and form a new one that suits them better,
This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,
which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
Abraham Lincoln
_______________________________________________
frers-list mailing list
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
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<table cellspacing=3D3D"0" cellpadding=3D3D"0" border=3D3D"0" ><tr><td vali=
gn=3D3D"=3D
top" style=3D3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Courtney,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Below are the things I'd change on the boat and why. Have fun an=
=3D
d good luck.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV>RELENTLESS 41621</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. Deeper keel about a foot more, all lead, which would add arou=
=3D
nd 300 lbs to the bottom of the keel. The boat is tender and in a blo=
=3D
w you've nearly always got the toe rail in the water. Or shorten the =
=3D
mast which would mean all new sails all new rigging but less heel and less =
=3D
power. I'm pretty sure the boom is set on the mast and cannot be adju=
=3D
sted so you'd probably need a whole new rig to keep the boom at the same he=
=3D
ight.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. Larger rudder/Redesigned rudder. The rudder on the <SPA=
=3D
N>Frers</SPAN> 33 looks like a normal size rudder but it is undersized=
=3D
. The boat will round up pretty fast. I once rounded up so hard=
=3D
we wound up going the other direction.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3. Side windows that open. There is NO cross ventilation o=
=3D
n that boat. If your going to spend some bucks then remove the plasti=
=3D
c windows that are there now. Glass up the holes and finish it so it =
=3D
looks like it never had any windows. Then cut out and install 4 =
=3D
windows on each side that open which will include one in the bathroom. =
=3D
; Boy that would be sweet.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>4. If this redo includes the interior make the bathroom bigger/w=
=3D
ider. Can't go any further into the boat with the head but it could s=
=3D
tand to be a bit wider. Anyone ever notice you have to turn sideways =
=3D
to get into the bathroom. Your shoulders won't fit through the door.&=
=3D
nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>5. If you're redoing the toe rail track that runs from the back =
=3D
of the boat to just forward of the side stays then I'd change that from the=
=3D
current 1/2 inch (slide right off the deck toe rail) to the taller 1 =
=3D
and 3/16ths inch. Now that would be a toe rail that you could really =
=3D
lay your foot up to and the top of the track is flat so if folks were sitti=
=3D
ng on the rail it wouldn't be digging into the backs of their legs. I=
=3D
'd install it with some pre-cut holes in the bottom so water could drain ov=
=3D
er the side without having to make it's way all the way to the back of the =
=3D
boat. You'll have to have the entire track bent to match the boat.</D=
=3D
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>6. If all you're ever going to do is cruise then add A/C. =
=3D
There's room under the cockpit on the starboard side and it will make life =
=3D
worth living on those REALLY hot days at the dock.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>7. Add a 2nd VHF antenna at the top of the mast. One for t=
=3D
he VHF and one that can be used for an FM RADIO and split so an ADS can be =
=3D
added to the boat. Most of the Chart Plotters out there on the m=
=3D
arket today can accept ADS info and overlay the boats on your plotter. =
=3D
; Along with that they can tell you your closest point that you will come t=
=3D
ogether and warn you if that means a collision. I have one and they c=
=3D
an see over the horizon because there using the masthead antenna. The=
=3D
y're REALLY great at night!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>8. Replace the wheel and all parts. It looks like it Ediso=
=3D
n but it's not and the pulley's under the deck are set in a cast aluminum b=
=3D
racket that will eventually fail. One of mine failed, on a windy day.=
=3D
Also have a custom made tiller made for the boat that will go OVER t=
=3D
he wheel and the pedestal. Trying to drive that boat with the small e=
=3D
mergency tiller that came with the boat was BRUTAL. We had to go no m=
=3D
ore than 800 yards back to my slip and it took two people on that tiller wi=
=3D
th it constantly trying to rip its self out of your hands. Very scary=
=3D
, and I cannot imagine what it would be like in any large body of water wit=
=3D
h waves.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>9. Add a nice cockpit canopy. Shade is a wonderful thi=
=3D
ng on a long hot sunny day.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>10. If it doesn't already have one an auto pilot.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 8/15/11, Courtney Thomas <I><courtneycthomas@bel=
=3D
lsouth.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:=
5=3D
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsou=
=3D
th.net><BR>Subject: [<SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>frers</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><=
=3D
/SPAN>-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?<BR>=
=3D
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR>Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 4:14 PM<=
=3D
BR><BR>
<DIV class=3D3DplainMail>Ahoy !<BR><BR>I am about to undertake a complete r=
ef=3D
it of a <SPAN>Frers</SPAN>33 and would appreciate all input regarding<BR>ch=
=3D
anges you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you had the same=
=3D
opportunity.<BR><BR>Any suggestions regarding materials and technique rega=
=3D
rding typical maintenance and restorative<BR>procedures are welcome as well=
=3D
, of course.<BR><BR>In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, de=
=3D
ck reinforcement, mast support, mast reconfiguration,<BR>and rigging, both =
=3D
standing and running, and rudder reinstallation... are of particular concer=
=3D
n,<BR>as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to grief ov=
=3D
er a choice that could easily now be made<BR>that would have made a much mo=
=3D
re salutary difference in time to come.<BR><BR>An additional note is that t=
=3D
he standing rigging is what I assume was the original 'rod' rigging.<BR><BR=
=3D
>My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.<BR><BR>Has anyone
shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?<BR><BR>Has anyone gone =
=3D
outboard with the chainplates ?<BR><BR>Please include intended consequences=
=3D
of any suggested alterations.<BR><BR>Hoping to not cause a firestorm from =
=3D
Frers purists :-)<BR><BR>In any case, no alterations have been =
=3D
yet made,...<BR><BR>Appreciatively,<BR><BR>Courtney Thomas<BR><BR>-- Any pe=
=3D
ople anywhere, being inclined and having the power,<BR>have the right to ri=
=3D
se up, and shake off the existing<BR>government, and form a new one that su=
=3D
its them better,<BR>This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right=
=3D
,<BR>which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.<BR>Abraham Lincol=
=3D
n<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>frers-list mail=
=3D
ing list<BR><A href=3D3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D3Df=
rers=3D
-list@lists.frers33.com" ymailto=3D3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">=
fr=3D
ers-list@lists.frers33.com</A><BR><A
href=3D3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list" target=3D3=
D_bl=3D
ank>http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list</A><BR></DIV></BLO=
=3D
CKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-2069569861-1313706946=3D:24909--
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: FRANCIS ALBERT <fxalbert@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would
you make ?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Reply-To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
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Joyce,
=3DA0
If you think the Frers 33 is the sweetest sailing Frers ever designed then =
=3D
you've never watched a Frers 36 sail away from you in a race.=3DA0 The hand=
ic=3D
ap difference is just 15 seconds but the 36 is much stiffer in a breeze, a =
=3D
lot=3DA0more interior room and a much, much faster boat.=3DA0 Like a minute=
a m=3D
ile faster.=3DA0 It's sails up, and Good by.=3DA0 There's a much larger dif=
fere=3D
nce between the two boats than just 36 inches.
=3DA0
The only problem is they made relatively few of them with the asymmetrical =
=3D
keel and those are the really fast ones.
Frank Albert
RELENTLESS
41621
--- On Wed, 8/17/11, joberdorf@optonline.net <joberdorf@optonline.net> wrot=
=3D
e:
From: joberdorf@optonline.net <joberdorf@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would y=
=3D
ou make ?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 5:33 PM
Courtney:
=3DA0
I will let others speak to the class rules specifically. But suffice it to =
=3D
say that=3DA0 to significantly alter the boat would make the frers a differ=
en=3D
t boat. Barry Carroll got a lot right when he designed it. It was Boat of t=
=3D
he Year at that time. By far, the sweetest sailing Frers.=3DA0 This has not=
hi=3D
ng to do with being a purist-- it has to do with the design of the boat.=3D=
20
However, here is what I know:
1. Running backs have been modified on some boats (placement of on deck var=
=3D
ies, mostly between tiller and wheel boats)
2. Keel has been slightly modified on some boats.=3DA0 Wolverine has a slig=
ht=3D
ly shorter keel that's "thicker" (hence better downwind). Others, have the =
=3D
standard depth keel.=3DA0 Boats such as Impetuous, and Checkmate (which fol=
lo=3D
wed Impetuous' lead) faired the trailing edge and therefore extended it to =
=3D
a fine edge. So you'll see slight variations. But these are all allowed wit=
=3D
hin class rules.
3. Never heard of anyone shortening the mast.=3DA0I heard of a Frers 41 own=
er=3D
LENGthening the boom (whichis a real pain in the butt in light air vis a v=
=3D
is the backstay)=3DA0and another lengthening the mast and keeping the boom.=
B=3D
ut these were entirely different boats.
4. Mast Steps have been strengthened in nearly every boat, over time. Mine =
=3D
was done by prior owner at New England Boatworks.
5. Rudder bearings have been changed in nearly every boat.=3DA0 For me, twi=
ce=3D
so far in 15 yrs.
6. Most rod rigging is replaced as it wears, but not reconfigured.=3DA0 In =
te=3D
rms of other rigging, I've seen different mainsheet arrangements in terms o=
=3D
f block purchase vs. fine tune, and most boats have installed the Harken tr=
=3D
aveller system.
7. Spinnaker poles are now carbon fiber, etc, but not changed otherwise.
=3DA0
=3DA0I presume you bought the Frers because you actually liked the boat?
=3DA0
Joyce (Checkmate owner)
----- Original Message -----
From: Courtney Thomas=3D20
Date: Monday, August 15, 2011 4:15 pm
Subject: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you m=
=3D
ake ?
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
> Ahoy !
>=3D20
> I am about to undertake a complete refit of a Frers33 and would=3D20
> appreciate all input regarding
> changes you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you=3D20
> had the=3D20
> same opportunity.
>=3D20
> Any suggestions regarding materials and technique regarding=3D20
> typical=3D20
> maintenance and restorative
> procedures are welcome as well, of course.
>=3D20
> In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck=3D20
> reinforcement,=3D20
> mast support, mast reconfiguration,
> and rigging, both standing and running, and rudder=3D20
> reinstallation... are=3D20
> of particular concern,
> as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to=3D20
> grief over=3D20
> a choice that could easily now be made
> that would have made a much more salutary difference in time to come.
>=3D20
> An additional note is that the standing rigging is what I assume=3D20
> was the=3D20
> original 'rod' rigging.
>=3D20
> My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.
>=3D20
> Has anyone shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?
>=3D20
> Has anyone gone outboard with the chainplates ?
>=3D20
> Please include intended consequences of any suggested alterations.
>=3D20
> Hoping to not cause a firestorm from Frers purists :-)
>=3D20
> In any case, no alterations have been yet made,...
>=3D20
> Appreciatively,
>=3D20
> Courtney Thomas
>=3D20
> --=3D20
> Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power,
> have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing
> government, and form a new one that suits them better,
> This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,
> which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
> Abraham Lincoln
>=3D20
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> frers-list@lists.frers33.com
> http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
>=20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D3D"0" cellpadding=3D3D"0" border=3D3D"0" ><tr><td vali=
gn=3D3D"=3D
top" style=3D3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Joyce,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you think the Frers 33 is the sweetest sailing Frers ever designed =
=3D
then you've never watched a Frers 36 sail away from you in a race. Th=
=3D
e handicap difference is just 15 seconds but the 36 is much stiffer in a br=
=3D
eeze, a lot more interior room and a much, much faster boat. Lik=
=3D
e a minute a mile faster. It's sails up, and Good by. There's a=
=3D
much larger difference between the two boats than just 36 inches.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The only problem is they made relatively few of them with the asymmetr=
=3D
ical keel and those are the really fast ones.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV>RELENTLESS</DIV>
<DIV>41621</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 8/17/11, joberdorf@optonline.net <I><joberdorf@o=
=3D
ptonline.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:=
5=3D
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: joberdorf@optonline.net <joberdorf@opton=
=3D
line.net><BR>Subject: Re: [<SPAN>frers</SPAN>-list]complete refit soon u=
=3D
nderway, what changes would you make ?<BR>To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com<=
=3D
BR>Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 5:33 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3D3Dyiv1100525606>
<DIV>Courtney:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I will let others speak to the class rules specifically. But suffice i=
=3D
t to say that to significantly alter the boat would make the frers a =
=3D
different boat. Barry Carroll got a lot right when he designed it. It was B=
=3D
oat of the Year at that time. By far, the sweetest sailing Frers. Thi=
=3D
s has nothing to do with being a purist-- it has to do with the design of t=
=3D
he boat. </DIV>
<DIV>However, here is what I know:</DIV>
<DIV>1. Running backs have been modified on some boats (placement of on dec=
=3D
k varies, mostly between tiller and wheel boats)</DIV>
<DIV>2. Keel has been slightly modified on some boats. Wolverine has =
=3D
a slightly shorter keel that's "thicker" (hence better downwind). Others, h=
=3D
ave the standard depth keel. Boats such as Impetuous, and Checkmate (=
=3D
which followed Impetuous' lead) faired the trailing edge and therefore exte=
=3D
nded it to a fine edge. So you'll see slight variations. But these are all =
=3D
allowed within class rules.</DIV>
<DIV>3. Never heard of anyone shortening the mast. I heard of a Frers =
=3D
41 owner LENGthening the boom (whichis a real pain in the butt in light air=
=3D
vis a vis the backstay) and another lengthening the mast and keeping =
=3D
the boom. But these were entirely different boats.</DIV>
<DIV>4. Mast Steps have been strengthened in nearly every boat, over time. =
=3D
Mine was done by prior owner at New England Boatworks.</DIV>
<DIV>5. Rudder bearings have been changed in nearly every boat. For m=
=3D
e, twice so far in 15 yrs.</DIV>
<DIV>6. Most rod rigging is replaced as it wears, but not reconfigured.&nbs=
=3D
p; In terms of other rigging, I've seen different mainsheet arrangements in=
=3D
terms of block purchase vs. fine tune, and most boats have installed the H=
=3D
arken traveller system.</DIV>
<DIV>7. Spinnaker poles are now carbon fiber, etc, but not changed otherwis=
=3D
e.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> I presume you bought the Frers because you actually liked the bo=
=3D
at?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joyce (Checkmate owner)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Courtney Thomas <BR>Date: Mo=
=3D
nday, August 15, 2011 4:15 pm<BR>Subject: [frers-list]complete refit soon u=
=3D
nderway, what changes would you make ?<BR>To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com<=
=3D
BR><BR>> Ahoy !<BR>> <BR>> I am about to undertake a complete refi=
=3D
t of a Frers33 and would <BR>> appreciate all input regarding<BR>> ch=
=3D
anges you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you <BR>> had=
=3D
the <BR>> same opportunity.<BR>> <BR>> Any suggestions regarding =
=3D
materials and technique regarding <BR>> typical <BR>> maintenance and=
=3D
restorative<BR>> procedures are welcome as well, of course.<BR>> <BR=
=3D
>> In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck <BR>> re=
=3D
inforcement, <BR>> mast support, mast reconfiguration,<BR>> and riggi=
=3D
ng, both standing and running, and rudder <BR>> reinstallation... are <B=
=3D
R>> of particular concern,<BR>> as I'd hate like hell to bear
this expense and later come to <BR>> grief over <BR>> a choice that =
=3D
could easily now be made<BR>> that would have made a much more salutary =
=3D
difference in time to come.<BR>> <BR>> An additional note is that the=
=3D
standing rigging is what I assume <BR>> was the <BR>> original 'rod'=
=3D
rigging.<BR>> <BR>> My primary interest is not racing, rather cruisi=
=3D
ng.<BR>> <BR>> Has anyone shortened or otherwise altered the original=
=3D
mast ?<BR>> <BR>> Has anyone gone outboard with the chainplates ?<BR=
=3D
>> <BR>> Please include intended consequences of any suggested altera=
=3D
tions.<BR>> <BR>> Hoping to not cause a firestorm from Frers purists =
=3D
:-)<BR>> <BR>> In any case, no alterations have been yet made,...<BR>=
=3D
> <BR>> Appreciatively,<BR>> <BR>> Courtney Thomas<BR>> <BR>=
=3D
> -- <BR>> Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power,<=
=3D
BR>> have the right to rise up, and shake off the
existing<BR>> government, and form a new one that suits them better,<BR=
=3D
>> This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,<BR>> whic=
=3D
h we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.<BR>> Abraham Lincoln<BR=
=3D
>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> frer=
=3D
s-list mailing list<BR>> frers-list@lists.frers33.com<BR>> http://lis=
=3D
ts.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list<BR>> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE=
=3D
></td></tr></table>
--0-38948252-1313707772=3D:55173--
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frers-list@lists.frers33.com
http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
End of frers-list Digest
_______________________________________________
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--0-2069551727-1313771770=:38507
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Courtney,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Wing keels came into vogue with the 1983 Americas Cup victo=
ry by Australia II. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>The problem is that the wing keel on that Americas Cup boat was incred=
ibly perfect for just that boat which gave it the advantage in the cup.&nbs=
p; That is not at all the case with mass produced wing keels. Th=
e mass produced wing keels are little more than shoal draft boats with a wi=
ng of sorts attached for additional ballast.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As such you don't see them anymore. They were a fad and they pro=
duced a shoal draft, which a lot of people loved. What they didn't pr=
ovide was the performance that was implied.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/19/11, Courtney Thomas <I><courtneycthomas@bel=
lsouth.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Courtney Thomas <courtneycthomas@bellsou=
th.net><BR>Subject: Re: [frers-list]Frers 38<BR>To: frers-list@lists.fre=
rs33.com<BR>Date: Friday, August 19, 2011, 11:49 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv623793273>How are the wing keel 33s regarded <SPAN>vis</SPAN>-=
a-vis other keels, please ?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Courtney<BR> <BR><BR>On =
8/19/2011 10:04 AM, Arthur Kelley wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>That is correct. She overwinters near me. This boat has a wing keel an=
d that may have been much more common on the 38 than the 33. I've nev=
er sailed on her. He previously raced a Tartan 10. <BR><BR>Art Kelley<=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Aug 19, 2011, at 9:46 AM, <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo=
.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlessera@aol.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:lessera@aol.com">lessera@aol.com</A> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3Darial>There is a 38 called Tomahaw=
k in Northport Harbor . I am pretty sure he is a member of the Northp=
ort Yacht Club and the name may be Vaughn=20
<DIV>Arnie<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: helvetica, arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"=
>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Rod Stright <<A href=3D"http://us.m=
c811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" rel=3Dnofollow ta=
rget=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:StrightR@eastlink.ca">StrightR@eastlink.ca<=
/A>><BR>To: frers-list <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank y=
mailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com=
</A>><BR>Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:45 am<BR>Subject: [frers-list]Frers 3=
8<BR><BR>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; MARGIN: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Ver=
dana, Arial, Sans-Serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12px" id=3Dyiv623793273AOL=
MsgPart_0_5867fa2e-cda9-4c79-aaf2-65b997e6d553><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt=
"><TT>Is anyone here familiar with the Frers 38? It looks much like the 33=
but
has anyone sailed on one or seen them sail or know anyone that has one.
Rod
Equinox
-----Original Message-----
From: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-=
admin@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:f=
rers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com</A>
[<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-admin=
@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-=
list-admin@lists.frers33.com">mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com</A>=
] On Behalf Of
<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list-reques=
t@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers=
-list-request@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-request@lists.frers33.com</A>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:02 AM
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
Subject: frers-list digest, Vol 1 #456 - 2 msgs
Send frers-list mailing list submissions to
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t</A>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?
(FRANCIS ALBERT)
2. Re: complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?
(FRANCIS ALBERT)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: FRANCIS ALBERT <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:fxalbert@prodigy.net">fxalbert@prodigy.net</A>>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would
you make ?
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
Reply-To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-l=
ist@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:fre=
rs-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
--0-2069569861-1313706946=3D:24909
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Courtney,
=3DA0
Below are the things I'd change on the boat and why.=3DA0 Have fun and good=
l=3D
uck.
=3DA0
Frank Albert
RELENTLESS 41621
=3DA0
1.=3DA0 Deeper keel about a foot more, all lead, which would add around 300=
l=3D
bs to the bottom of the keel.=3DA0 The boat is tender and in a blow you've =
ne=3D
arly always got the toe rail in the water.=3DA0 Or shorten the mast which w=
ou=3D
ld mean all new sails all new rigging but less heel and less power.=3DA0 I'=
m =3D
pretty sure the boom is set on the mast and cannot be adjusted so you'd pro=
=3D
bably need a whole new rig to keep the boom at the same height.
=3DA0
2.=3DA0 Larger rudder/Redesigned rudder.=3DA0 The rudder on the Frers 33 lo=
oks =3D
like a normal size rudder but it is=3DA0undersized.=3DA0 The boat will roun=
d up=3D
pretty fast.=3DA0 I once rounded up so hard we wound up going the other di=
re=3D
ction.
=3DA0
3.=3DA0 Side windows that open.=3DA0 There is NO cross ventilation on that =
boat=3D
.=3DA0 If your going to spend some bucks then remove the plastic windows th=
at=3D
are there now.=3DA0 Glass up the holes and finish it so it looks like it n=
ev=3D
er had any windows.=3DA0 Then cut out and=3DA0install 4 windows on each sid=
e th=3D
at open which will include one in the bathroom.=3DA0 Boy that would be swee=
t.
=3DA0
4.=3DA0 If this redo includes the interior make the bathroom bigger/wider.=
=3DA0=3D
Can't go any further into the boat with the head but it could stand to be =
=3D
a bit wider.=3DA0 Anyone ever notice you have to turn sideways to get into =
th=3D
e bathroom.=3DA0 Your shoulders won't fit through the door.=3DA0
=3DA0
5.=3DA0 If you're redoing the toe rail track that runs from the back of the=
b=3D
oat to just forward of the side stays then I'd change that from the current=
=3D
1/2 inch (slide right off the deck toe=3DA0rail) to the taller 1 and 3/16t=
hs=3D
inch.=3DA0 Now that would be a toe rail that you could really lay your foo=
t =3D
up to and the top of the track is flat so if folks were sitting on the rail=
=3D
it wouldn't be digging into the backs of their legs.=3DA0 I'd install it w=
it=3D
h some pre-cut holes in the bottom so water could drain over the side witho=
=3D
ut having to make it's way all the way to the back of the boat.=3DA0 You'll=
h=3D
ave to have the entire track bent to match the boat.
=3DA0
6.=3DA0 If all you're ever going to do is cruise then add A/C.=3DA0 There's=
roo=3D
m under the cockpit on the starboard side and it will make life worth livin=
=3D
g on those REALLY hot days at the dock.
=3DA0
7.=3DA0 Add a 2nd VHF antenna at the top of the mast.=3DA0 One for the VHF =
and =3D
one that can be used for an FM RADIO and split so an ADS can be added to th=
=3D
e boat.=3DA0 Most of the=3DA0Chart Plotters out there on the market today c=
an a=3D
ccept ADS info and overlay the boats on your plotter.=3DA0 Along with that =
th=3D
ey can tell you your closest point that you will come together and warn you=
=3D
if that means a collision.=3DA0 I have one and they can see over the horiz=
on=3D
because there using the masthead antenna.=3DA0 They're REALLY great at nig=
ht=3D
!
=3DA0
8.=3DA0 Replace the wheel and all parts.=3DA0 It looks like it Edison but i=
t's =3D
not and the pulley's under the deck are set in a cast aluminum bracket that=
=3D
will eventually fail.=3DA0 One of mine failed, on a windy day.=3DA0 Also h=
ave =3D
a custom made tiller made for the boat that will go OVER the wheel and the =
=3D
pedestal.=3DA0 Trying to drive that boat with the small emergency tiller th=
at=3D
came with the boat was BRUTAL.=3DA0 We had to go no more than 800 yards ba=
ck=3D
to my slip and it took two people on that tiller with it constantly trying=
=3D
to rip its self out of your hands.=3DA0 Very scary, and I cannot imagine w=
ha=3D
t it would be like in any large body of water with waves.
9.=3DA0 Add a nice cockpit canopy.=3DA0 Shade is a wonderful thing on a lon=
g ho=3D
t sunny day.
=3DA0
10.=3DA0 If it doesn't already have one an auto pilot.
--- On Mon, 8/15/11, Courtney Thomas <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dcourtneycthomas@bellsouth.net" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net">courtneycthomas=
@bellsouth.net</A>> wrote:
From: Courtney Thomas <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp=
ose?to=3Dcourtneycthomas@bellsouth.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net">courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net<=
/A>>
Subject: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you m=
=3D
ake ?
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 4:14 PM
Ahoy !
I am about to undertake a complete refit of a Frers33 and would appreciate =
=3D
all input regarding
changes you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you had the sa=
=3D
me opportunity.
Any suggestions regarding materials and technique regarding typical mainten=
=3D
ance and restorative
procedures are welcome as well, of course.
In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck reinforcement, ma=
=3D
st support, mast reconfiguration,
and rigging, both standing and running, and rudder reinstallation... are of=
=3D
particular concern,
as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to grief over a c=
=3D
hoice that could easily now be made
that would have made a much more salutary difference in time to come.
An additional note is that the standing rigging is what I assume was the or=
=3D
iginal 'rod' rigging.
My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.
Has anyone shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?
Has anyone gone outboard with the chainplates ?
Please include intended consequences of any suggested alterations.
Hoping to not cause a firestorm from Frers purists=3DA0 :-)
In any case, no alterations have=3DA0 been yet made,...
Appreciatively,
Courtney Thomas
-- Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power,
have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing
government, and form a new one that suits them better,
This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,
which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
Abraham Lincoln
_______________________________________________
frers-list mailing list
<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.=
frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
<A href=3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list" rel=3Dnofo=
llow target=3D_blank>http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list</=
A>
--0-2069569861-1313706946=3D:24909
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D3D"0" cellpadding=3D3D"0" border=3D3D"0" ><tr=
><td valign=3D3D"=3D
top" style=3D3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Courtney,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Below are the things I'd change on the boat and why.&nbsp; H=
ave fun an=3D
d good luck.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV>RELENTLESS 41621</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1.&nbsp; Deeper keel about a foot more, all lead, which woul=
d add arou=3D
nd 300 lbs to the bottom of the keel.&nbsp; The boat is tender and in a=
blo=3D
w you've nearly always got the toe rail in the water.&nbsp; Or shorten =
the =3D
mast which would mean all new sails all new rigging but less heel and less =
=3D
power.&nbsp; I'm pretty sure the boom is set on the mast and cannot be =
adju=3D
sted so you'd probably need a whole new rig to keep the boom at the same he=
=3D
ight.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2.&nbsp; Larger rudder/Redesigned rudder.&nbsp; The rudd=
er on the <SPA=3D
N>Frers</SPAN> 33 looks like a normal size rudder but it is&nb=
sp;undersized=3D
.&nbsp; The boat will round up pretty fast.&nbsp; I once rounded up=
so hard=3D
we wound up going the other direction.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3.&nbsp; Side windows that open.&nbsp; There is NO cross=
ventilation o=3D
n that boat.&nbsp; If your going to spend some bucks then remove the pl=
asti=3D
c windows that are there now.&nbsp; Glass up the holes and finish it so=
it =3D
looks like it never had any windows.&nbsp; Then cut out and&nbsp;in=
stall 4 =3D
windows on each side that open which will include one in the bathroom.&=
nbsp=3D
; Boy that would be sweet.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>4.&nbsp; If this redo includes the interior make the bathroo=
m bigger/w=3D
ider.&nbsp; Can't go any further into the boat with the head but it cou=
ld s=3D
tand to be a bit wider.&nbsp; Anyone ever notice you have to turn sidew=
ays =3D
to get into the bathroom.&nbsp; Your shoulders won't fit through the do=
or.&=3D
nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>5.&nbsp; If you're redoing the toe rail track that runs from=
the back =3D
of the boat to just forward of the side stays then I'd change that from the=
=3D
current 1/2 inch (slide right off the deck toe&nbsp;rail) to the talle=
r 1 =3D
and 3/16ths inch.&nbsp; Now that would be a toe rail that you could rea=
lly =3D
lay your foot up to and the top of the track is flat so if folks were sitti=
=3D
ng on the rail it wouldn't be digging into the backs of their legs.&nbs=
p; I=3D
'd install it with some pre-cut holes in the bottom so water could drain ov=
=3D
er the side without having to make it's way all the way to the back of the =
=3D
boat.&nbsp; You'll have to have the entire track bent to match the boat=
.</D=3D
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>6.&nbsp; If all you're ever going to do is cruise then add A=
/C.&nbsp; =3D
There's room under the cockpit on the starboard side and it will make life =
=3D
worth living on those REALLY hot days at the dock.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>7.&nbsp; Add a 2nd VHF antenna at the top of the mast.&n=
bsp; One for t=3D
he VHF and one that can be used for an FM RADIO and split so an ADS can be =
=3D
added to the boat.&nbsp; Most of the&nbsp;Chart Plotters out there =
on the m=3D
arket today can accept ADS info and overlay the boats on your plotter.&=
nbsp=3D
; Along with that they can tell you your closest point that you will come t=
=3D
ogether and warn you if that means a collision.&nbsp; I have one and th=
ey c=3D
an see over the horizon because there using the masthead antenna.&nbsp;=
The=3D
y're REALLY great at night!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>8.&nbsp; Replace the wheel and all parts.&nbsp; It looks=
like it Ediso=3D
n but it's not and the pulley's under the deck are set in a cast aluminum b=
=3D
racket that will eventually fail.&nbsp; One of mine failed, on a windy =
day.=3D
&nbsp; Also have a custom made tiller made for the boat that will go OV=
ER t=3D
he wheel and the pedestal.&nbsp; Trying to drive that boat with the sma=
ll e=3D
mergency tiller that came with the boat was BRUTAL.&nbsp; We had to go =
no m=3D
ore than 800 yards back to my slip and it took two people on that tiller wi=
=3D
th it constantly trying to rip its self out of your hands.&nbsp; Very s=
cary=3D
, and I cannot imagine what it would be like in any large body of water wit=
=3D
h waves.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>9.&nbsp; Add a nice cockpit canopy.&nbsp; Shad=
e is a wonderful thi=3D
ng on a long hot sunny day.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>10.&nbsp; If it doesn't already have one an auto pilot.</=
DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 8/15/11, Courtney Thomas <I>=
;&lt;courtneycthomas@bel=3D
<A href=3D"http://lsouth.net/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>lsouth.net</A=
>&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LE=
FT: 5=3D
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Courtney Thomas &lt;courtneyct=
homas@bellsou=3D
<A href=3D"http://th.net/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>th.net</A>&gt=
;<BR>Subject: [<SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>frers&=
lt;/SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><=3D
/SPAN>-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you make ?&=
lt;BR>=3D
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A><BR>Date: Monday=
, August 15, 2011, 4:14 PM<=3D
BR><BR>
<DIV class=3D3DplainMail>Ahoy !<BR><BR>I am about to unde=
rtake a complete ref=3D
it of a <SPAN>Frers</SPAN>33 and would appreciate all input reg=
arding<BR>ch=3D
anges you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you had the same=
=3D
opportunity.<BR><BR>Any suggestions regarding materials and te=
chnique rega=3D
rding typical maintenance and restorative<BR>procedures are welcome a=
s well=3D
, of course.<BR><BR>In particular... keel reattachment, hull de=
ck joint, de=3D
ck reinforcement, mast support, mast reconfiguration,<BR>and rigging,=
both =3D
standing and running, and rudder reinstallation... are of particular concer=
=3D
n,<BR>as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to gr=
ief ov=3D
er a choice that could easily now be made<BR>that would have made a m=
uch mo=3D
re salutary difference in time to come.<BR><BR>An additional no=
te is that t=3D
he standing rigging is what I assume was the original 'rod' rigging.<BR&=
gt;<BR=3D
>My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.<BR><BR>=
Has anyone
shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?<BR><BR>Has =
anyone gone =3D
outboard with the chainplates ?<BR><BR>Please include intended =
consequences=3D
of any suggested alterations.<BR><BR>Hoping to not cause a fir=
estorm from =3D
Frers purists&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>In any case, no alterations =
have&nbsp; been =3D
yet made,...<BR><BR>Appreciatively,<BR><BR>Courtney=
Thomas<BR><BR>-- Any pe=3D
ople anywhere, being inclined and having the power,<BR>have the right=
to ri=3D
se up, and shake off the existing<BR>government, and form a new one t=
hat su=3D
its them better,<BR>This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a=
right=3D
,<BR>which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.<BR>Ab=
raham Lincol=3D
n<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR&=
gt;frers-list mail=3D
ing list<BR><A href=3D3D"<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3D3Dfrers=3D" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://us.mc811=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D3Dfrers=3D</A>
-<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlist@lists.frers=
33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:list@lists.frers33=
.com">list@lists.frers33.com</A>" ymailto=3D3D"<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.m=
ail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">mailto:frer=
s-list@lists.frers33.com</A>">fr=3D
<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Ders-list@lists.fr=
ers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:ers-list@lists.=
frers33.com">ers-list@lists.frers33.com</A></A><BR><A
href=3D3D"<A href=3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list"=
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/f=
rers-list</A>" target=3D3D_bl=3D
ank><A href=3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list%3C/A=
%3E%3CBR%3E%3C/DIV%3E" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://lists.frers33.=
com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list</A><BR></DIV></A></BLO=
=3D
CKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-2069569861-1313706946=3D:24909--
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:49:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: FRANCIS ALBERT <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
se?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mai=
lto:fxalbert@prodigy.net">fxalbert@prodigy.net</A>>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would
you make ?
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
Reply-To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-l=
ist@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:fre=
rs-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
--0-38948252-1313707772=3D:55173
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joyce,
=3DA0
If you think the Frers 33 is the sweetest sailing Frers ever designed then =
=3D
you've never watched a Frers 36 sail away from you in a race.=3DA0 The hand=
ic=3D
ap difference is just 15 seconds but the 36 is much stiffer in a breeze, a =
=3D
lot=3DA0more interior room and a much, much faster boat.=3DA0 Like a minute=
a m=3D
ile faster.=3DA0 It's sails up, and Good by.=3DA0 There's a much larger dif=
fere=3D
nce between the two boats than just 36 inches.
=3DA0
The only problem is they made relatively few of them with the asymmetrical =
=3D
keel and those are the really fast ones.
Frank Albert
RELENTLESS
41621
--- On Wed, 8/17/11, <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
o=3Djoberdorf@optonline.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mail=
to:joberdorf@optonline.net">joberdorf@optonline.net</A> <<A href=3D"http=
://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djoberdorf@optonline.net" rel=3Dn=
ofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:joberdorf@optonline.net">joberdor=
f@optonline.net</A>> wrot=3D
e:
From: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djoberdorf@o=
ptonline.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:joberdorf@op=
tonline.net">joberdorf@optonline.net</A> <<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mai=
l.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djoberdorf@optonline.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:joberdorf@optonline.net">joberdorf@optonline.ne=
t</A>>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would y=
=3D
ou make ?
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 5:33 PM
Courtney:
=3DA0
I will let others speak to the class rules specifically. But suffice it to =
=3D
say that=3DA0 to significantly alter the boat would make the frers a differ=
en=3D
t boat. Barry Carroll got a lot right when he designed it. It was Boat of t=
=3D
he Year at that time. By far, the sweetest sailing Frers.=3DA0 This has not=
hi=3D
ng to do with being a purist-- it has to do with the design of the boat.=3D=
20
However, here is what I know:
1. Running backs have been modified on some boats (placement of on deck var=
=3D
ies, mostly between tiller and wheel boats)
2. Keel has been slightly modified on some boats.=3DA0 Wolverine has a slig=
ht=3D
ly shorter keel that's "thicker" (hence better downwind). Others, have the =
=3D
standard depth keel.=3DA0 Boats such as Impetuous, and Checkmate (which fol=
lo=3D
wed Impetuous' lead) faired the trailing edge and therefore extended it to =
=3D
a fine edge. So you'll see slight variations. But these are all allowed wit=
=3D
hin class rules.
3. Never heard of anyone shortening the mast.=3DA0I heard of a Frers 41 own=
er=3D
LENGthening the boom (whichis a real pain in the butt in light air vis a v=
=3D
is the backstay)=3DA0and another lengthening the mast and keeping the boom.=
B=3D
ut these were entirely different boats.
4. Mast Steps have been strengthened in nearly every boat, over time. Mine =
=3D
was done by prior owner at New England Boatworks.
5. Rudder bearings have been changed in nearly every boat.=3DA0 For me, twi=
ce=3D
so far in 15 yrs.
6. Most rod rigging is replaced as it wears, but not reconfigured.=3DA0 In =
te=3D
rms of other rigging, I've seen different mainsheet arrangements in terms o=
=3D
f block purchase vs. fine tune, and most boats have installed the Harken tr=
=3D
aveller system.
7. Spinnaker poles are now carbon fiber, etc, but not changed otherwise.
=3DA0
=3DA0I presume you bought the Frers because you actually liked the boat?
=3DA0
Joyce (Checkmate owner)
----- Original Message -----
From: Courtney Thomas=3D20
Date: Monday, August 15, 2011 4:15 pm
Subject: [frers-list]complete refit soon underway, what changes would you m=
=3D
ake ?
To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
> Ahoy !
>=3D20
> I am about to undertake a complete refit of a Frers33 and would=3D20
> appreciate all input regarding
> changes you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you=3D20
> had the=3D20
> same opportunity.
>=3D20
> Any suggestions regarding materials and technique regarding=3D20
> typical=3D20
> maintenance and restorative
> procedures are welcome as well, of course.
>=3D20
> In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck=3D20
> reinforcement,=3D20
> mast support, mast reconfiguration,
> and rigging, both standing and running, and rudder=3D20
> reinstallation... are=3D20
> of particular concern,
> as I'd hate like hell to bear this expense and later come to=3D20
> grief over=3D20
> a choice that could easily now be made
> that would have made a much more salutary difference in time to come.
>=3D20
> An additional note is that the standing rigging is what I assume=3D20
> was the=3D20
> original 'rod' rigging.
>=3D20
> My primary interest is not racing, rather cruising.
>=3D20
> Has anyone shortened or otherwise altered the original mast ?
>=3D20
> Has anyone gone outboard with the chainplates ?
>=3D20
> Please include intended consequences of any suggested alterations.
>=3D20
> Hoping to not cause a firestorm from Frers purists :-)
>=3D20
> In any case, no alterations have been yet made,...
>=3D20
> Appreciatively,
>=3D20
> Courtney Thomas
>=3D20
> --=3D20
> Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power,
> have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing
> government, and form a new one that suits them better,
> This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,
> which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.
> Abraham Lincoln
>=3D20
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@l=
ists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-li=
st@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A>
> <A href=3D"http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list" rel=
=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers=
-list</A>
>=20
--0-38948252-1313707772=3D:55173
Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D3D"0" cellpadding=3D3D"0" border=3D3D"0" ><tr=
><td valign=3D3D"=3D
top" style=3D3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Joyce,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you think the Frers 33 is the sweetest sailing Frers ever des=
igned =3D
then you've never watched a Frers 36 sail away from you in a race.&nbsp=
; Th=3D
e handicap difference is just 15 seconds but the 36 is much stiffer in a br=
=3D
eeze, a lot&nbsp;more interior room and a much, much faster boat.&n=
bsp; Lik=3D
e a minute a mile faster.&nbsp; It's sails up, and Good by.&nbsp; T=
here's a=3D
much larger difference between the two boats than just 36 inches.</DIV&=
gt;
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The only problem is they made relatively few of them with the as=
ymmetr=3D
ical keel and those are the really fast ones.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV>RELENTLESS</DIV>
<DIV>41621</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 8/17/11, <A href=3D"http://us.mc8=
11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djoberdorf@optonline.net" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:joberdorf@optonline.net">joberdorf@optonli=
ne.net</A> <I>&lt;joberdorf@o=3D
<A href=3D"http://ptonline.net/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>ptonline.ne=
t</A>&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LE=
FT: 5=3D
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Djoberdorf@optonline.net" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_b=
lank ymailto=3D"mailto:joberdorf@optonline.net">joberdorf@optonline.net</A>=
&lt;joberdorf@opton=3D
<A href=3D"http://line.net/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>line.net</A>&am=
p;gt;<BR>Subject: Re: [<SPAN>frers</SPAN>-list]complete r=
efit soon u=3D
nderway, what changes would you make ?<BR>To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc=
811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofo=
llow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-=
list@lists.frers33.com</A><=3D
BR>Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2011, 5:33 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3D3Dyiv1100525606>
<DIV>Courtney:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I will let others speak to the class rules specifically. But suf=
fice i=3D
t to say that&nbsp; to significantly alter the boat would make the frer=
s a =3D
different boat. Barry Carroll got a lot right when he designed it. It was B=
=3D
oat of the Year at that time. By far, the sweetest sailing Frers.&nbsp;=
Thi=3D
s has nothing to do with being a purist-- it has to do with the design of t=
=3D
he boat. </DIV>
<DIV>However, here is what I know:</DIV>
<DIV>1. Running backs have been modified on some boats (placement of =
on dec=3D
k varies, mostly between tiller and wheel boats)</DIV>
<DIV>2. Keel has been slightly modified on some boats.&nbsp; Wolv=
erine has =3D
a slightly shorter keel that's "thicker" (hence better downwind). Others, h=
=3D
ave the standard depth keel.&nbsp; Boats such as Impetuous, and Checkma=
te (=3D
which followed Impetuous' lead) faired the trailing edge and therefore exte=
=3D
nded it to a fine edge. So you'll see slight variations. But these are all =
=3D
allowed within class rules.</DIV>
<DIV>3. Never heard of anyone shortening the mast.&nbsp;I heard o=
f a Frers =3D
41 owner LENGthening the boom (whichis a real pain in the butt in light air=
=3D
vis a vis the backstay)&nbsp;and another lengthening the mast and keep=
ing =3D
the boom. But these were entirely different boats.</DIV>
<DIV>4. Mast Steps have been strengthened in nearly every boat, over =
time. =3D
Mine was done by prior owner at New England Boatworks.</DIV>
<DIV>5. Rudder bearings have been changed in nearly every boat.&n=
bsp; For m=3D
e, twice so far in 15 yrs.</DIV>
<DIV>6. Most rod rigging is replaced as it wears, but not reconfigure=
d.&nbs=3D
p; In terms of other rigging, I've seen different mainsheet arrangements in=
=3D
terms of block purchase vs. fine tune, and most boats have installed the H=
=3D
arken traveller system.</DIV>
<DIV>7. Spinnaker poles are now carbon fiber, etc, but not changed ot=
herwis=3D
e.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;I presume you bought the Frers because you actually li=
ked the bo=3D
at?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Joyce (Checkmate owner)</DIV>
<DIV><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Courtney T=
homas <BR>Date: Mo=3D
nday, August 15, 2011 4:15 pm<BR>Subject: [frers-list]complete refit =
soon u=3D
nderway, what changes would you make ?<BR>To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc=
811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" rel=3Dnofo=
llow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-=
list@lists.frers33.com</A><=3D
BR><BR>&gt; Ahoy !<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I am a=
bout to undertake a complete refi=3D
t of a Frers33 and would <BR>&gt; appreciate all input regarding&=
lt;BR>&gt; ch=3D
anges you would make vis-a-vis the original assemblage, if you <BR>&a=
mp;gt; had=3D
the <BR>&gt; same opportunity.<BR>&gt; <BR>&=
gt; Any suggestions regarding =3D
materials and technique regarding <BR>&gt; typical <BR>&=
;gt; maintenance and=3D
restorative<BR>&gt; procedures are welcome as well, of course.&l=
t;BR>&gt; <BR=3D
>&gt; In particular... keel reattachment, hull deck joint, deck <=
BR>&gt; re=3D
inforcement, <BR>&gt; mast support, mast reconfiguration,<BR&g=
t;&gt; and riggi=3D
ng, both standing and running, and rudder <BR>&gt; reinstallation=
... are <B=3D
R>&gt; of particular concern,<BR>&gt; as I'd hate like hel=
l to bear
this expense and later come to <BR>&gt; grief over <BR>&am=
p;gt; a choice that =3D
could easily now be made<BR>&gt; that would have made a much more=
salutary =3D
difference in time to come.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; An additio=
nal note is that the=3D
standing rigging is what I assume <BR>&gt; was the <BR>&am=
p;gt; original 'rod'=3D
rigging.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; My primary interest is not r=
acing, rather cruisi=3D
ng.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Has anyone shortened or otherwise =
altered the original=3D
mast ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Has anyone gone outboard with =
the chainplates ?<BR=3D
>&gt; <BR>&gt; Please include intended consequences of any=
suggested altera=3D
tions.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hoping to not cause a firestorm=
from Frers purists =3D
:-)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In any case, no alterations have b=
een yet made,...<BR>=3D
&gt; <BR>&gt; Appreciatively,<BR>&gt; <BR>&am=
p;gt; Courtney Thomas<BR>&gt; <BR>=3D
&gt; -- <BR>&gt; Any people anywhere, being inclined and havi=
ng the power,<=3D
BR>&gt; have the right to rise up, and shake off the
existing<BR>&gt; government, and form a new one that suits them =
better,<BR=3D
>&gt; This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right,<BR=
>&gt; whic=3D
h we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.<BR>&gt; Abraham =
Lincoln<BR=3D
>&gt; <BR>&gt; ___________________________________________=
____<BR>&gt; frer=3D
s-list mailing list<BR>&gt; <A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo=
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