[frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing project continues
Rod Stright
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:33:03 -0400
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Yes I used this material, a Thordon XL lot harder than Derlin. =
<https://thordonbearings.com/docs/default-source/propeller-shaft-bearing-=
systems/design/marine_bearing_installation_manual.pdf?sfvrsn=3D828209f_20=
> =
https://thordonbearings.com/docs/default-source/propeller-shaft-bearing-s=
ystems/design/marine_bearing_installation_manual.pdf?sfvrsn=3D828209f_20 =
Thordon XL rough moulded tube 3" x 2.5" they use it on ships so it =
should last forever on a sailboat=F0=9F=98=8A It was available locally. =
I though I had a piece left over at the machine shop but there is some =
available locally I checked for a C&C 99 owner in Ontario.
=20
Not cheap but not the kind of job you want to do again.
=20
Rod
=20
=20
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
<frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com> On Behalf Of Brian Higgins
Sent: November-09-20 5:17 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: RE: [frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing project continues
=20
Mike,
=20
FYI Delrin is actually a poor choice for the bushing material for a =
couple of reasons. 1 it is soft and dirt or other containments that get =
in there can quickly erode and grind it down, 2 it absorbs moisture and =
swells which can both seize up or increase friction on the rudder, as =
well as make problem 1 worse.=20
=20
One of my crew is a naval engineer and designs mega yacht stability =
control systems which have some very similar design components to our =
rudder shafts & posts in terms of engineering specs. I replaced my =
failed upper bushing last summer and he recommended a composite low =
friction bushing material from http://www.cipcomposites.com/ that =
doesn=E2=80=99t swell in the presence of water (most plastics do). Cost =
was roughly $200 and it took about 2 weeks to get the part.
=20
Attached at the documents from the upper bushing I had made and may also =
be following along with you doing my lower bushing this year too, which =
I would have them machine up as well=E2=80=A6 Installation involved =
removing the upper bushing sleeve, removing the old worn bushing =
(appeared to be Delrin, at least what was left of it), then making a dry =
ice + alcohol bath and soaking the new bushing in that to cool it, while =
heating the bronze sleeve in an oven, then pressed the new bushing into =
the bronze sleeve.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for =
Windows 10
=20
From: Hoyt, Mike <mailto:Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com>=20
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 12:56 PM
To: 'frers-list@lists.frers33.com' <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com> =
Subject: RE: [frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing project continues
=20
Hi Bill
=20
No I had never greased the rudder shaft in the past. This is the only =
reason that I can guess this bolt exists. Judging from its location it =
would serve no other purpose. When the rudder post squeaks on =
Persistence I would spray Fluid Film at the top of the post in the =
cockpit and the squeak would go away for a year or so.
=20
I am having the Delrin sleeves manufactured by a friend who has a =
machine shop. He is also a boat owner and very knowledgeable about this =
sort of thing
=20
I agree that pictures are nice in the description of the process. This =
makes it easier to know what you are looking at when you try it =
yourself.
=20
Mike
=20
=20
=20
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
<mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com> =
<frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
<mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com> > On Behalf Of William Brown
Sent: November 9, 2020 12:28 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>=20
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing project continues
=20
Great postings Mike. I can see why she is correctly named Persistence. =
You, of course, should be christened Courageous. I dropped the rudder a =
couple times from my former boat, a Frers 30, but with a tiller, that =
was a piece of cake. If I ever have to take on this project on my 33 =
(heaven forbid), your account and pictures will be invaluable. How =
available are the replacement bearings/sleeves and what is the source? =
Also have you (or anyone else) routinely greased the rudder shaft via =
the bolt hole you describe above the middle bearing? Hope you'll keep =
this post going to its successful conclusion.=20
=20
Thanks and good luck,
=20
Bill Brown
Cheval Blanc (formerly First Edition) Hull 26
Missoula, MT
=20
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:42 AM Rod Stright < =
<mailto:strightr@eastlink.ca> strightr@eastlink.ca> wrote:
That=E2=80=99s why I call them bushings. As I recall on mine there was =
a flexible sleeve that went over the rudder post sleeve/tube which =
prevented water coming into the boat. Perhaps this replaced the middle =
bushing you have. I=E2=80=99ll see if I can find a picture of it =
tonight.
=20
Rod=20
=20
Sent from my iPhone
=20
On Nov 9, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Hoyt, Mike < =
<mailto:Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com> Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF=20
With a lot of information from Rod Stright (Equinox) who had previously =
done this project the task of removing the existing rudder bearings for =
replacement is nearly complete.
=20
The story is documented on Persistence Website =
<http://www.hoytsailing.com> www.hoytsailing.com
=20
As of now the top bearing or sleeve at cockpit sole is removed as well =
as a middle bearing just beneath the quadrant. A lower bearing where =
the rudder exits the hull is still very firmly in place. =20
=20
Note that these =E2=80=9Cbearings=E2=80=9D are actually sleeves rather =
than bearings and do not come out easily.
=20
Mike Hoyt
Persistence
1987 Frers 33 #16
Halifax, Nova Scotia
<http://www.hoytsailing.com> www.hoytsailing.com
=20
=20
--=20
Bill Brown
Western Montana Equine
=20
This email has been scanned for spam and viruses by Proofpoint =
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DDefault><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Yes =
I used this material, a</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'> Thordon XL</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> lot =
harder than Derlin.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a =
href=3D"https://thordonbearings.com/docs/default-source/propeller-shaft-b=
earing-systems/design/marine_bearing_installation_manual.pdf?sfvrsn=3D828=
209f_20"><span =
style=3D'color:#002060'>https://thordonbearings.com/docs/default-source/p=
ropeller-shaft-bearing-systems/design/marine_bearing_installation_manual.=
pdf?sfvrsn=3D828209f_20</span></a> </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p></o:p></span></p><table =
class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D1 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
style=3D'margin-left:-5.4pt;border-collapse:collapse;border:none'><tr =
style=3D'height:20.15pt'><td width=3D785 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:588.75pt;border:none;padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt;height:20.15pt'><p class=3DDefault><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'>=C2=A0Thordon XL rough moulded =
tube 3" x 2.5" they use it on ships so it should last forever =
on a sailboat</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Segoe =
UI Emoji",sans-serif;color:#002060'>😊</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'> It was available =
locally.=C2=A0 I though I had a piece left over at the machine shop but =
there is some available locally I checked for a C&C 99 owner in =
Ontario.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DDefault><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DDefault><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'>Not cheap =
but not the kind of job you want to do again.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DDefault><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DDefault><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;color:#002060'>Rod<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></=
tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
<frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian =
Higgins<br><b>Sent:</b> November-09-20 5:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
frers-list@lists.frers33.com<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing project =
continues<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>FYI Delrin is actually a poor choice for the bushing =
material for a couple of reasons. 1 it is soft and dirt or other =
containments that get in there can quickly erode and grind it down, 2 it =
absorbs moisture and swells which can both seize up or increase friction =
on the rudder, as well as make problem 1 worse. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>One of my crew is a naval engineer =
and designs mega yacht stability control systems which have some very =
similar design components to our rudder shafts & posts in terms of =
engineering specs. I replaced my failed upper bushing last summer =
and he recommended a composite low friction bushing material from <a =
href=3D"http://www.cipcomposites.com/">http://www.cipcomposites.com/</a> =
that doesn=E2=80=99t swell in the presence of water (most plastics do). =
Cost was roughly $200 and it took about 2 weeks to get the =
part.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Attached at the documents from the upper bushing I had made =
and may also be following along with you doing my lower bushing this =
year too, which I would have them machine up as well=E2=80=A6 =
Installation involved removing the upper bushing sleeve, removing the =
old worn bushing (appeared to be Delrin, at least what was left of it), =
then making a dry ice + alcohol bath and soaking the new bushing in that =
to cool it, while heating the bronze sleeve in an oven, then pressed the =
new bushing into the bronze sleeve. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Sent from <a =
href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for =
Windows 10<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US>From: =
</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com">Hoyt, Mike</a><br><b>Sent: =
</b>Monday, November 9, 2020 12:56 PM<br><b>To: </b><a =
href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">'frers-list@lists.frers33.co=
m'</a><br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing =
project continues<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Bill<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>No I had never greased the rudder shaft in the =
past. This is the only reason that I can guess this bolt =
exists. Judging from its location it would serve no other =
purpose. When the rudder post squeaks on Persistence I would spray =
Fluid Film at the top of the post in the cockpit and the squeak would go =
away for a year or so.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I am having =
the Delrin sleeves manufactured by a friend who has a machine =
shop. He is also a boat owner and very knowledgeable about this =
sort of thing<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I agree that pictures are nice in the description of =
the process. This makes it easier to know what you are looking at =
when you try it yourself.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Mike<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> <a =
href=3D"mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@lists=
.frers33.com</a> <<a =
href=3D"mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com">frers-list-admin@lists=
.frers33.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>William Brown<br><b>Sent:</b> =
November 9, 2020 12:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com=
</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [frers-list]Persistence rudder bearing =
project continues<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Great =
postings Mike. I can see why she is correctly named =
Persistence. You, of course, should be christened Courageous. I =
dropped the rudder a couple times from my former boat, a Frers 30, but =
with a tiller, that was a piece of cake. If I ever have to take on =
this project on my 33 (heaven forbid), your account and pictures will be =
invaluable. How available are the replacement bearings/sleeves and =
what is the source? Also have you (or anyone else) routinely greased the =
rudder shaft via the bolt hole you describe above the middle =
bearing? Hope you'll keep this post going to its successful =
conclusion. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks and good luck,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bill Brown<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheval Blanc (formerly First Edition) Hull =
26<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Missoula, =
MT<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:42 AM Rod Stright <<span lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"mailto:strightr@eastlink.ca"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA>strightr@eastlink.ca</span></a></span>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:9.6pt'>That=E2=80=99s why I call them =
bushings. As I recall on mine there was a flexible sleeve that =
went over the rudder post sleeve/tube which prevented water coming into =
the boat. Perhaps this replaced the middle bushing you have. =
I=E2=80=99ll see if I can find a picture of it =
tonight.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:9.6pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:9.6pt'>Rod <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:9.6pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:9.6pt'>Sent from my =
iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:9.6pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;mar=
gin-left:81.6pt'>On Nov 9, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Hoyt, Mike <<span =
lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"mailto:Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA>Mike.Hoyt@impgroup.com</span></a></span>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:81.6pt'>=EF=BB=BF =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><div =
id=3D"gmail-m_713980216480226552m_7235940282775425655divtagdefaultwrapper=
"><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>With a lot of information from Rod Stright (Equinox) who had =
previously done this project the task of removing the existing rudder =
bearings for replacement is nearly complete.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>The story is documented on Persistence Website <span =
lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"http://www.hoytsailing.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
lang=3DEN-CA>www.hoytsailing.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>As of now the top bearing or sleeve at cockpit sole is removed as =
well as a middle bearing just beneath the quadrant. A lower =
bearing where the rudder exits the hull is still very firmly in =
place. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>Note that these =E2=80=9Cbearings=E2=80=9D are actually sleeves =
rather than bearings and do not come out easily.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>Mike Hoyt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>Persistence<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>1987 Frers 33 #16<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9=
1.2pt'>Halifax, Nova Scotia<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
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1.2pt'><span lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"http://www.hoytsailing.com" =
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lang=3DEN-CA>www.hoytsailing.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
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1.2pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Bill Brown<br>Western Montana =
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