[frers-list]Sailing Up-wind

Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:10:35 -0500

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Frank,

Thanks for the tips on downwind.  I will definitely try.  I never have any
weather helm except when over powered, say above 17kts AWS with the #1, so I
suspect your forestay is definitely part of the problem.  When I am in the
groove, there is very little helm at all, in fact, the rudder starts
oscillating slightly so that I can feel the key in my wheel's keyway rocking
back and forth as the rudder balances itself at centerline.  

I'd take the rake out and see what that gets you.  Seems like something that
somebody tried who didn't know what they were doing.

-----Original Message-----
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of Albert Francis X
NSSC
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 9:00 AM
To: 'frers-list@lists.frers33.com'
Subject: RE: [frers-list]Sailing Up-wind

Junius,

I agree, have new sails, Kevlar/Mylar North and UK.  Have a professionally
finished bottom painted with VC Offshore with Teflon and then wet sanded
with 600 until it had a high gloss finish.  Have reduced some weight in the
boat around 100 excess pounds including that big oven/stove which I replaced
with a 2 burner stove only job.  Will look for more to remove from the boat.

One thing that I have that more and more I know is not right is an extender
on the forestay which extends it an additional 5 inches.  This acts to
increase the mast rake and I'm pretty sure Mr. Frers didn't design that into
the boat and Carroll Marine didn't build it into the boat.

Thanks,
Frank 

-----Original Message-----
From: Brown, Junius {PCNA} [mailto:Junius.Brown@pepsi.com]
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 16:08
To: 'frers-list@lists.frers33.com'
Subject: RE: [frers-list]Sailing Up-wind

Sounds stupid, but start with making sure your bottom is fair, sails are
new, and the boat is light.  In my first season I suffered from a serious
boat speed problem that was amazingly fixed by these three things!

Agree that apparent wind should be between 26-28 once you are up to speed.
You should outpoint all of the competition, always gaining height even if
you are giving up some speed - if you have VMG instrument, use it.  Agree on
Hiking!  Also - Don't underestimate the importance of the main to powering
the boat.  Agree on the outboard leads (and forward), but I still havent
completely cracked the code off the wind, though I suspect sailing lower
than predicted by the curves is faster.
-----Original Message-----
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Black
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 12:37 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: [frers-list]Sailing Up-wind
I'm still struggling also, and against slower competition.  One thing I have
found is that as soon as we are not hard on the wind it pays big time to
move the jib lead to the rail from the track.  Also in heavy air (20+kts)
I'll put the #3 lead on the rail, I give up a few degrees pointing but the
main traveller can then be played down quite a bit and the helm is much
lighter. When we do hit the groove the boat really moves.

I just found some polars based on IMS for the boat that shows up-wind
apparent wind angle of 26 deg. for pretty much all wind speeds and with a
full crew on the rail.

Jerry Black
Pelirrojas 42222

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Frank,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Thanks=20
for the tips on downwind.&nbsp; I will definitely try.&nbsp; I never =
have any=20
weather helm except when over powered, say above 17kts AWS with the #1, =
so I=20
suspect your forestay is definitely part of the problem.&nbsp; When I =
am in the=20
groove, there is very little helm at all, in fact, the rudder starts =
oscillating=20
slightly so that I can feel the key in my wheel's keyway rocking back =
and forth=20
as the rudder balances itself at centerline.&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I'd=20
take the rake out and see what that gets you.&nbsp; Seems like =
something that=20
somebody tried who didn't know what they were =
doing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489395814-07062004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com]=20
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Albert Francis X NSSC<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June =
07, 2004=20
9:00 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'frers-list@lists.frers33.com'<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
[frers-list]Sailing Up-wind<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Junius,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">I=20
  agree, have new sails, Kevlar/Mylar North and UK.<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Have a professionally =
finished bottom=20
  painted with VC Offshore with Teflon and then wet sanded with 600 =
until it had=20
  a high gloss finish.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Have reduced=20
  some weight in the boat around 100 excess pounds including that big =
oven/stove=20
  which I replaced with a 2 burner stove only job.<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Will look for more to =
remove from the=20
  boat.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

<SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">One=20
 thing that I have that more and more I know is not right is an =
extender on the=20
 forestay which extends it an additional 5 inches.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; This acts to increase the =
mast rake=20
 and I&#8217;m pretty sure Mr. Frers didn&#8217;t design that into the =
boat and Carroll=20
 Marine didn&#8217;t build it into the =
boat.<o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Frank=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3Dblack=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> =
Brown,=20
  Junius {PCNA} [mailto:Junius.Brown@pepsi.com]<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, June 04, 2004=20
  16:08<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
  'frers-list@lists.frers33.com'<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: =
[frers-list]Sailing=20
  Up-wind</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
  size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Sounds=20
  stupid, but start with making sure your bottom is fair, sails are =
new, and the=20
  boat is light.&nbsp; In my first season I suffered from a serious =
boat speed=20
  problem that was amazingly fixed by these three =
things!</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
  color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
  size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Agree=20
  that apparent wind should be between 26-28 once you are up to =
speed.&nbsp; You=20
  should outpoint all of the competition, always gaining height even if =
you are=20
  giving up some speed - if you have VMG instrument, use it.&nbsp; =
Agree on=20
  Hiking!&nbsp; Also - Don't underestimate the importance of the main =
to=20
  powering the boat.&nbsp; Agree on the outboard leads (and forward), =
but&nbsp;I=20
  still havent completely cracked the code off the wind, though I =
suspect=20
  sailing lower than predicted by the curves is =
faster.</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; mso-margin-top-alt: =
auto"><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> =

frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com =
[mailto:frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com]=20
 On Behalf Of Jerry=20
 Black Sent: =
Thursday, June=20
 03, 2004 12:37 PM To:=20
 frers-list@lists.frers33.com <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: [frers-list]Sailing=20
 Up-wind<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm still =
struggling=20
 also, and against slower competition.&nbsp; One thing I have found is =
that as=20
 soon as we are not hard on the wind it pays big time to move the jib =
lead to=20
 the rail from the track.&nbsp; Also in heavy air (20+kts) I'll put =
the #3 lead=20
 on the rail, I give up a few degrees pointing but the main traveller =
can then=20
 be played down quite a bit and the helm is much lighter. When we do =
hit the=20
 groove the boat really moves.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I just =
found some=20
 polars based on IMS for the boat that shows up-wind apparent wind =
angle of 26=20
 deg. for pretty much all wind speeds and with a full crew on the=20
 rail.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jerry=20
 Black<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Pelirrojas=20
 42222<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

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