[frers-list]My unique keel on hull #54
Courtney Thomas
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:50:45 -0500
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Oz,
Thank you for your suggestion which might, for me at least, have been
way to go before having the keel reinstalled but I've now got so much
already invested that, to backtrack I' d need to win the lottery :-)
But seriously, I do appreciate your suggestion. Who could build such a
spacer and do you have any idea what it ought to cost and do you know
anyone who has actually done this ?
If she was stiffer, wouldn't she also be 'whippier', i.e. would I not
lose some smoothness in 'er motion; or, would she be so much more
'stable' that 'er motion would be, relatively, of little consequence ?
Speaking of rigging, she has, I'm told, very little actual sailin'
under 'er keel, despite the age, how would you regard
'er still on board rod rigging ? Toss it, use it for a spare or can I
have it tested; and if the latter, how can I be confident that the
testing is competent and reliable ? Finally, what would you do, based on
what I've said ?
Cordially,
Courtney
On 12/12/2013 10:51 PM, ozgur wrote:
> you can remove the keel have a bracket made that will fit between the
> keel and hull like a spacer and install the keel as low as you
> like.i'd make the bracket hollow since it will have less righting
> moment and you have a bulb at the end, you would end up with a stiffer
> better boat, now you need bigger sail area and rigging.
> oz.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Courtney Thomas
> <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net <mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net>>
> wrote:
>
> On 12/12/2013 3:34 PM, Bob Connell wrote:
>
> Courtney, is the keel installed on the boat now or is it off?
> If it is off can the boatyard weigh the keel or put it on a
> trailer and take it to a scale.Moving companies or a truck
> stop will have scale.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 12, 2013, at 7:13 AM, Arthur Kelley
> <akelley@optonline.net <mailto:akelley@optonline.net>> wrote:
>
> Courtney,
>
> Any photos? I think it would be marvelous to document the
> differences. Perhaps an all-inclusive shot showing rudder
> and keel then close-ups of each.
>
> I haven't done all the math but if your rudder is 55" and
> your draft is 4'11" (59") I think the rudder is "just
> right". You don't want a rudder deeper than your keel
> because bad things may happen in a grounding.
>
> Art
>
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Courtney Thomas
> <courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net
> <mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>
> First, thanks to all who've responded to my attempts
> at sorting out what I've got here in hull #54 :-)
>
> Rudder Concerns
> ______________________________________________________________________________________________
> #54's RUDDER's length is 55" which apparently is 5"
> less than the the other boats rudders
> which have been included in this ongoing discussion.
>
> Anyone know if this correlates with the following
> description of #54's keel and it's 16" shortened
> length, or is an
> improper and subsequent-to-construction-launch
> alteration ?
>
> Also, would not it have been appropriate to in fact
> increase the 4000# ballast on the stock boat to
> compensate for
> reduced draft and lever arm on #54 thus hopefully
> restoring at least some lost stability and ease of
> motion ?
>
> Finally, the vertical-midpoint of the
> rudder's-forward-entry-width is approximately 2",
> which I expected to have a finer entry. Comment ?
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> End of Rudder Concerns
>
> The boat's current storage location is not near my
> house but I took yesterday to travel to
> the yard to make measurements, which apparently vary
> from the stock keel as follows:
>
> Keel Concerns
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> Foot 16" wide at it's widest and tapers to
> almost a point aft but has a less fine entry for'd,
> and IS apparently a winged keel as opposed to
> my former posts. I did not measure it's thickness but
> it is multiplel inches,
> thereby compensating for the
> reduced lever arm.
>
> At least part of my confusion
> regarding the keel is that the former owner made
> misstatements
> about #54's history, though I
> assume in ignorance rather than intent.
> Thanks to all in helping sort this
> out as I'm in a Frers doldrum down here in Savannah.
>
> Draft I only approximated it to about 5'
> which does correspond to the published figure of 4'
> 11" for the
> winged keel version of a Frers33.
> Does anyone know if there was another winged keel 33'
> built ?
>
> Foot Length - approximately 5', yes 5', again
> compensating for the reduced draft and ballast from
> the stock keel,
> I assume.
>
> At this point I doubt the keel has actually been
> altered from what Carroll Marine shipped, but
> am open to refutation, and if that is the case, would
> welcome it.
> _______________________________________________________________________________________________
> End of Keel Concerns
>
>
> Finally, does anyone know anything about the history
> of this boat, #54 ?
>
> Most appreciatively,
>
> Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> frers-list@lists.frers33.com
> <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
> http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> frers-list@lists.frers33.com
> <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
> http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> frers-list@lists.frers33.com <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
> http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> The keel is now installed on the boat. The job was done by the
> owner of Oasis Boatyard in St. Augustine, Fl. and
> cost a mini-fortune.
>
> At the date of purchase in Palm Beach, Fl., I was negligently
> insufficiently concerned about the keel's heritage, for
> reasons I won't bore you; not knowing among other things that it
> apparently was a one-of-a-kind. But, as you've probably already
> read, I'm now satisfied that it's lineage has not been compromised
> and is what I took it to be :-)
>
> I will confess that, knowing what I now know, I definitely would
> have weighed the keel before installation. But I might indirectly
> infer it's weight by weighing the boat as is and comparing it's
> displacement with the standard and attribute any surplus to the
> keel. As far as I know, the keel is the only difference, but would
> be happy to be corrected.
>
> Finally, I would guess that it being unique, Barry Carroll might
> remember its details. If I knew he had the specifics on it I would
> certainly try to contact him, but would be surprised if that were so.
>
> Cordially,
>
>
> Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> frers-list mailing list
> frers-list@lists.frers33.com <mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
> http://lists.frers33.com/mailman/listinfo/frers-list
>
>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Oz,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your suggestion which might, for me at least, have
been way to go before having the keel reinstalled but I've now got
so much already invested that, to backtrack I' d need to win the
lottery :-) But seriously, I do appreciate your suggestion. Who
could build such a spacer and do you have any idea what it ought
to cost and do you know anyone who has actually done this ?<br>
<br>
If she was stiffer, wouldn't she also be 'whippier', i.e. would I
not lose some smoothness in 'er motion; or, would she be so much
more 'stable' that 'er motion would be, relatively, of little
consequence ?<br>
<br>
Speaking of rigging, she has, I'm told, very little actual
sailin' under 'er keel, despite the age, how would you regard<br>
'er still on board rod rigging ? Toss it, use it for a spare or
can I have it tested; and if the latter, how can I be confident
that the testing is competent and reliable ? Finally, what would
you do, based on what I've said ?<br>
<br>
Cordially,<br>
<br>
Courtney<br>
<br>
On 12/12/2013 10:51 PM, ozgur wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGSVXMU+gsAPy_1ziZnkwJGaw9-EioVoTFS5cyiWxBFHPrH2fg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">you can remove the keel have a bracket made that
will fit between the keel and hull like a spacer and install the
keel as low as you like.i'd make the bracket hollow since it
will have less righting moment and you have a bulb at the end,
you would end up with a stiffer better boat, now you need bigger
sail area and rigging.
<div>
oz.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:32 PM,
Courtney Thomas <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net"
target="_blank">courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">On 12/12/2013 3:34 PM, Bob Connell wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Courtney, is the keel installed on the boat now or is
it off? If it is off can the boatyard weigh the keel
or put it on a trailer and take it to a scale.Moving
companies or a truck stop will have scale.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<br>
On Dec 12, 2013, at 7:13 AM, Arthur Kelley <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:akelley@optonline.net" target="_blank">akelley@optonline.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Courtney,<br>
<br>
Any photos? I think it would be marvelous to
document the differences. Perhaps an all-inclusive
shot showing rudder and keel then close-ups of each.<br>
<br>
I haven't done all the math but if your rudder is
55" and your draft is 4'11" (59") I think the rudder
is "just right". You don't want a rudder deeper than
your keel because bad things may happen in a
grounding.<br>
<br>
Art<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Courtney Thomas <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net"
target="_blank">courtneycthomas@bellsouth.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
First, thanks to all who've responded to my
attempts at sorting out what I've got here in hull
#54 :-)<br>
<br>
Rudder Concerns<br>
______________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
#54's RUDDER's length is 55" which apparently is
5" less than the the other boats rudders<br>
which have been included in this ongoing
discussion.<br>
<br>
Anyone know if this correlates with the following
description of #54's keel and it's 16" shortened
length, or is an<br>
improper and subsequent-to-construction-launch
alteration ?<br>
<br>
Also, would not it have been appropriate to in
fact increase the 4000# ballast on the stock boat
to compensate for<br>
reduced draft and lever arm on #54 thus hopefully
restoring at least some lost stability and ease of
motion ?<br>
<br>
Finally, the vertical-midpoint of the
rudder's-forward-entry-width is approximately 2",
which I expected to have a finer entry. Comment ?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
End of Rudder Concerns<br>
<br>
The boat's current storage location is not near my
house but I took yesterday to travel to<br>
the yard to make measurements, which apparently
vary from the stock keel as follows:<br>
<br>
Keel Concerns<br>
_______________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
Foot 16" wide at it's widest and tapers
to almost a point aft but has a less fine entry
for'd, and IS apparently a winged keel as
opposed to my former posts. I did not measure it's
thickness but it is multiplel inches,<br>
thereby compensating for the
reduced lever arm.<br>
<br>
At least part of my confusion
regarding the keel is that the former owner made
misstatements<br>
about #54's history, though I
assume in ignorance rather than intent.<br>
Thanks to all in helping sort
this out as I'm in a Frers doldrum down here in
Savannah.<br>
<br>
Draft I only approximated it to about
5' which does correspond to the published figure
of 4' 11" for the<br>
winged keel version of a
Frers33. Does anyone know if there was another
winged keel 33' built ?<br>
<br>
Foot Length - approximately 5', yes 5', again
compensating for the reduced draft and ballast
from the stock keel,<br>
I assume.<br>
<br>
At this point I doubt the keel has actually been
altered from what Carroll Marine shipped, but<br>
am open to refutation, and if that is the case,
would welcome it.<br>
_______________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
End of Keel Concerns<br>
<br>
<br>
Finally, does anyone know anything about the
history of this boat, #54 ?<br>
<br>
Most appreciatively,<br>
<br>
Courtney<br>
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</blockquote>
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frers-list mailing list<br>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
Bob,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your interest.<br>
<br>
The keel is now installed on the boat. The job was done by
the owner of Oasis Boatyard in St. Augustine, Fl. and<br>
cost a mini-fortune.<br>
<br>
At the date of purchase in Palm Beach, Fl., I was
negligently insufficiently concerned about the keel's
heritage, for<br>
reasons I won't bore you; not knowing among other things
that it apparently was a one-of-a-kind. But, as you've
probably already read, I'm now satisfied that it's lineage
has not been compromised and is what I took it to be :-)<br>
<br>
I will confess that, knowing what I now know, I definitely
would have weighed the keel before installation. But I might
indirectly infer it's weight by weighing the boat as is and
comparing it's displacement with the standard and attribute
any surplus to the keel. As far as I know, the keel is the
only difference, but would be happy to be corrected.<br>
<br>
Finally, I would guess that it being unique, Barry Carroll
might remember its details. If I knew he had the specifics
on it I would certainly try to contact him, but would be
surprised if that were so.<br>
<br>
Cordially,
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
Courtney<br>
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target="_blank">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</a><br>
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