[frers-list]Re: Rudder issues
Brian Higgins
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Tue, 25 Jun 2019 21:54:30 +0000
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No photos yet, but as it stands right now it=92s just re-assembled with som=
e temporary lubrication added to verify the friction & squeaking when under=
sail is the bottom flange of the upper housing contacting the rudder post =
(if it temporarily goes away when sailing tomorrow night, even if for only =
the first 20 minutes, I=92ll know it=92s correctly identified). Assuming i=
t does, I=92ll be removing everything again Thursday, when I=92ll take phot=
os of everything.
I located a shop in Milford that can make the new bushing, and I=92ll be gi=
ving them the part to press the new bushing into.
My main question now is what material do I use for the new bushing. Delrin=
, which I=92ve always understood was commonly thought to be a good material=
, is it turns out from my research today a poor rudder bearing material as =
it has both poor wear properties and also swells in the presence of water (=
which little did I know, turns out is a common thing for many plastics), an=
d the swelling causes the bearing to sometimes seize, or at least wear much=
faster as it swells and contracts based upon moisture levels (I guess that=
=92s somewhat less of an issue for the lower bearing that=92s always submer=
ged). So far I=92ve found two products, Vesconite and DuraBlue that are sp=
ecifically for this, but at least the DuraBlue is rather pricey, $700 for t=
he raw material before machining. I haven=92t located pricing yet on Vescon=
ite.
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window=
s 10
________________________________
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com <frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m> on behalf of austral - martin contal <austral@contal.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:25:05 PM
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: RE: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues
Very interesting Brian, did you -or anyone dealing with rudder issues- have=
pictures of the assembly?
Cheers,
Martin
:: austral ::
From: frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com <frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.co=
m> On Behalf Of Brian Higgins
Sent: June-25-19 10:39 AM
To: Jerry Black <jcblack099@aol.com>; frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues
Thanks. Pulled the upper bearing assembly apart last night, it shows sign=
s of the bushing being worn, I've got a small area on port and starboard wh=
ere the bushing is worn enough the bronze lip at the bottom has been in con=
tact with the rudder shaft, making some calls today about getting a new bus=
hing made for it. There are signs of dirt that got down between from the =
cockpit having worn grooves inside there too, so that probably contributed =
to the bushing wearing.
We put lithium Grease between the bushing and the post (had a friend from N=
orwalk Cove marina give a hand, his advice, and what they put on every Rudd=
er post they reassemble).
Also of note, on advice of several mechanics and other marine industry peop=
le, I did partially go against the common wisdom of no grease, I put lewmar=
gear Grease (winch rebuild Grease) in the post, since it's known for plast=
ic compatibility and doesn't gunk & clog up. TIme will tell if I regret do=
ing it, but so far it made a huge (and I mean really huge) difference in th=
e wheel.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Jerry Black <jcblack099@aol.com<mailto:jcblack099@aol.com>>
Date: 6/25/19 10:05 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com<mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Cc: Brian Higgins <brian@sailingit.com<mailto:brian@sailingit.com>>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues
Have Dawn, will lube. Thanks, the zerc fitting fooled me into thinking grea=
se ws the answer.
Jerry Black
Pelirrojas
-----Original Message-----
From: Edgar Smith <Edgar@geomatrixproductions.com<mailto:Edgar@geomatrixpro=
ductions.com>>
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com<mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com> <frer=
s-list@lists.frers33.com<mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com>>
Cc: Brian Higgins <brian@sailingit.com<mailto:brian@sailingit.com>>
Sent: Tue, Jun 25, 2019 8:56 am
Subject: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues
There is likely some corrosion and pitting on the rudder post that may be a=
factor. I can=92t say if you have a worn bearing , but we had a similar pr=
oblem that was just swelling ad Bob described. On Pachyderm, I lubricate th=
e rudder post around the rudder cap in the cockpit and into the top of the =
tube under the quadrant with dawn dish soap so that it oozes down the post =
and into the bushing. I have a flexible straw e-taped onto the bottle so I =
can reach past the quadrant by crawling in through the lazarette. Our old b=
oatyard had lubricated it with grease one year and caused the nylon bushing=
s to swell and the rudder post bound and squeaked very badly, especially un=
der load. Letting the dish soap pour down and some rinsing with a hose seem=
ed to remove the grease and it hasn=92t been a problem since. It still sque=
aks slightly under load but I haven=92t soaped it yet this season. The bush=
ings are designed to be self-lubricating. I=92m not sure if my picture will=
come through on the discussion list, But it shows the straw taped to the d=
awn soap bottle needed to get soap in past the quadrant..
--
Edgar Smith
Pachyderm
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No photos yet, but as it stands right now it=92s jus=
t re-assembled with some temporary lubrication added to verify the friction=
& squeaking when under sail is the bottom flange of the upper housing =
contacting the rudder post (if it temporarily
goes away when sailing tomorrow night, even if for only the first 20 minut=
es, I=92ll know it=92s correctly identified). Assuming it does, I=92l=
l be removing everything again Thursday, when I=92ll take photos of everyth=
ing.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I located a shop in Milford that can make the new bu=
shing, and I=92ll be giving them the part to press the new bushing into.&nb=
sp;
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My main question now is what material do I use for t=
he new bushing. Delrin, which I=92ve always understood was commonly t=
hought to be a good material, is it turns out from my research today a poor=
rudder bearing material as it has both poor
wear properties and also swells in the presence of water (which little did=
I know, turns out is a common thing for many plastics), and the swelling c=
auses the bearing to sometimes seize, or at least wear much faster as it sw=
ells and contracts based upon moisture
levels (I guess that=92s somewhat less of an issue for the lower bearing t=
hat=92s always submerged). So far I=92ve found two products, Vesconit=
e and
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-seri=
f;color:#333333;background:white">
DuraBlue that are specifically for this, but at least the DuraBlue is rathe=
r pricey, $700 for the raw material before machining. I haven=92t located p=
ricing yet on Vesconite.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> frers-list-admin@list=
s.frers33.com <frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com> on behalf of austr=
al - martin contal <austral@contal.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:25:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> frers-list@lists.frers33.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Very interesting Brian, did you -or anyone dealing with rudder issues-=
have pictures of the assembly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#203864;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#0070C0;mso=
-fareast-language:EN-US">:: austral ::<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> frers-list-admin@lists.frers33.com <frers-list-admin@lists.f=
rers33.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Higgins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June-25-19 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jerry Black <jcblack099@aol.com>; frers-list@lists.frers33=
.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks. Pulled the upper bearing assembl=
y apart last night, it shows signs of the bushing being worn, I've got a sm=
all area on port and starboard where the bushing is worn enough the bronze =
lip at the bottom has been in contact with the
rudder shaft, making some calls today about getting a new bushing made for=
it. There are signs of dirt that got down between from the coc=
kpit having worn grooves inside there too, so that probably contributed to =
the bushing wearing. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We put lithium Grease between the bushing and the po=
st (had a friend from Norwalk Cove marina give a hand, his advice, and what=
they put on every Rudder post they reassemble). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also of note, on advice of several mechanics and oth=
er marine industry people, I did partially go against the common wisdom of =
no grease, I put lewmar gear Grease (winch rebuild Grease) in the post, sin=
ce it's known for plastic compatibility
and doesn't gunk & clog up. TIme will tell if I regret doing it,=
but so far it made a huge (and I mean really huge) difference in the wheel=
. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;color:#575757">Sent v=
ia the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-------- Original message --------<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: Jerry Black <<a href=3D"mailto:jcblack099@a=
ol.com">jcblack099@aol.com</a>>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Date: 6/25/19 10:05 AM (GMT-05:00) <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To: <a href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">=
frers-list@lists.frers33.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cc: Brian Higgins <<a href=3D"mailto:brian@sailin=
git.com">brian@sailingit.com</a>>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues <o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:black">Have Dawn, will lube. Thanks, the zerc fi=
tting fooled me into thinking grease ws the answer.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:black">Jerry Black<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Pelirrojas=
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">-----O=
riginal Message-----<br>
From: Edgar Smith <<a href=3D"mailto:Edgar@geomatrixproductions.com">Edg=
ar@geomatrixproductions.com</a>><br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers3=
3.com</a> <<a href=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@li=
sts.frers33.com</a>><br>
Cc: Brian Higgins <<a href=3D"mailto:brian@sailingit.com">brian@sailingi=
t.com</a>><br>
Sent: Tue, Jun 25, 2019 8:56 am<br>
Subject: [frers-list]Re: Rudder issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id=3D"yiv0672306737">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica",san=
s-serif;color:black">There is likely some corrosion and pitting on the rudd=
er post that may be a factor. I can=92t say if you have a worn bearing , bu=
t we had a similar problem that was just swelling
ad Bob described. On Pachyderm, I lubricate the rudder post around the rud=
der cap in the cockpit and into the top of the tube under the quadrant with=
dawn dish soap so that it oozes down the post and into the bushing. I have=
a flexible straw e-taped onto the
bottle so I can reach past the quadrant by crawling in through the lazaret=
te. Our old boatyard had lubricated it with grease one year and caused the =
nylon bushings to swell and the rudder post bound and squeaked very badly, =
especially under load. Letting the
dish soap pour down and some rinsing with a hose seemed to remove the grea=
se and it hasn=92t been a problem since. It still squeaks slightly under lo=
ad but I haven=92t soaped it yet this season. The bushings are designed to =
be self-lubricating. I=92m not sure if
my picture will come through on the discussion list, But it shows the stra=
w taped to the dawn soap bottle needed to get soap in past the quadrant..</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans=
-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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s-serif;color:black"> </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
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