[frers-list] keeping the boat flat
Scott Marino
frers-list@lists.frers33.com
Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
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All this talk of stoves and weights is interesting but what I really want t=
o know is:=A0=20
=A0
When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you find it best to use the #3 with f=
ull main or reef the main and carry a bigger headsail?=A0 In the tug of war=
between a flat boat and a boat that points as high as possible, which is b=
etter?
=A0
Has anyone ever used a #4?
=A0
--- On Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "frers-list@lists.frers33.com" <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 8:31 AM
Ah, good point. I stand corrected! =A0Always check with your local authorit=
y! Remember we do have a designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I don't know how=
many have been weighed but going below that would be a clear cut PHRF viol=
ation as well.=A0
Art Kelley
On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal Melanson <neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
"If you race only PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the window.=
" - Art Kelley
=A0
I have to clarify that even PHRF discourages=A0modifications.=A0 There are =
serveral hundred=A0pounds the previous owner and I always wanted to strip o=
ut of Vapor Trail but never did because of the spirit of the "as-built" sta=
tement in the PHRF rules, that combined with never wanting to hear any excu=
ses=A0from the cutthroat SOBs we raced against up here.
=A0
Here is=A0the excerpt from PHRFNE.org:
"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to handicap boats in an as-built configurat=
ion. PHRF-NE will adjust the handicaps of boats that have been altered from=
the as- built configuration to completely compensate for any expected spee=
d advantage. Variations must be reported to the Chief Handicapper so that t=
he Fleet can be more accurately handicapped."
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrot=
e:
Oops - sorry I mis-spoke.=A0 The water heater is only 15 lbs. It's spelled =
out in the rules.
=A0
Art
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Arthur Kelley=20
To: frers-list@lists.frers33.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
Frank,
The weight would be 40 lbs and is on the opposite side of the bulkhead of t=
he ice box. I sure we would figure out something if you came to a one desig=
n event. We definitely want an inclusive fleet but want to protect all owne=
rs against someone who just wants to beat the rules. If you race only PHRF =
then the one design prescriptions go out the window. However to maintain re=
sale and protect the future owner if they want to do one design we suggest =
keeping changes modest and reversable.=A0
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, FRANCIS ALBERT <fxalbert@prodigy.net> wrote:
=A0
I think Arthur hits the spirt of the rule along with the letter of it.=A0 H=
owever, on my boat I not only didn't get the water heater, I don't even hav=
e the shelf he's talking about so yikes what kind of weight would I be addi=
ng.=A0 Anyone know what the water heater weighs?=A0=20
=A0
Looks like I may not truck the boat up to Newport anytime soon.
=A0
Frank Albert
=A0
--- On Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net> wrote:
From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven
To: "frers-list@lists.frers33.com" <frers-list@lists.frers33.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 4:32 PM
Looking at the rules as spelled out in the Word doc on the site:
5.If the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel tank (40 lbs, @1/4 full) or oven=
(40 lbs excluding two burner stove top) have been permanently moved, remov=
ed, or not obtained when the boat was built, a weight equal to the item sha=
ll be affixed in its intended location during all racing events.
A few important principles come out.=A0
1. It does not allow that the stove can be removed, only the oven. We can d=
iscuss how to handle a missing stove in another thread if necessary.=A0
2. The oven is assumed to be replaceable with 40 lbs of weight.=A0
3. Substituted weight must be affixed in the intended location.=A0
4. Anyone want to pull out their fuel tank?
#3 means that hot water heater substitute weight for example, cannot be con=
solidated to the bilge, but must be in the lazarette on the shelf where the=
heater would have been. With regards to the oven I suspect it is generally=
agreed that the weight can be placed in the space below the stove not nece=
ssarily bolted to the bottom of the stove. However it should be noted that =
safety, not only the letter of the rules suggest (require?) that the weight=
s be affixed so that in the event of a knock down that they do not become l=
ife threatening projectiles.=A0
We need to be mindful that the one design rules are designed to ensure that=
an owner who cruises the boat can remain competitive with another boat whi=
ch is used exclusively for racing. It is not designed to be a strategy for =
removing a bunch of distributed weight and consolidating it centerline belo=
w the waterline.=A0
Thoughts?
Art Kelley
On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Neal Melanson <neal.melanson@gmail.com> wrote:
...lets all check the Class rules before we start on any weight saving prog=
rams.=A0 I started a fire storm years ago over PBO Backstays and Carbon Fib=
re Rudders.
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Rod Stright <StrightR@eastlink.ca> wrote:
Anyone interested in purchasing an Origo stove and oven for the Frers 33, l=
ike new condition seldom used.=A0 Intend to replace with an Origo two burne=
r stove, would consider a trade.
=A0
Rod
Equinox
902-444-0016
=0A=0A=0A
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>All this talk of stoves and weights is i=
nteresting but what I really want to know is: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When going up wind in 20 to 25 kts do you find it best to use the #3 w=
ith full main or reef the main and carry a bigger headsail? In the tu=
g of war between a flat boat and a boat that points as high as possible, wh=
ich is better?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Has anyone ever used a #4?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/28/10, Arthur Kelley <I><akelley@optonlin=
e.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Arthur Kelley <akelley@optonline.net>=
<BR>Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven<BR>To: "frers-list@lists.=
frers33.com" <frers-list@lists.frers33.com><BR>Date: Thursday, Octobe=
r 28, 2010, 8:31 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv740517234>
<DIV>Ah, good point. I stand corrected! Always check with your local =
authority! Remember we do have a designed base Weight of 9000 lbs. I don't =
know how many have been weighed but going below that would be a clear cut P=
HRF violation as well. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Neal Melanson <<A href=3D"http://u=
s.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:neal.melanson@gmail.com">neal.melanso=
n@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>"If you race only PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the wi=
ndow. " - Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have to clarify that even PHRF discourages modifications. =
There are serveral hundred pounds the previous owner and I always wan=
ted to strip out of Vapor Trail but never did because of the spirit of the =
"as-built" statement in the PHRF rules, that combined with never wanting to=
hear any excuses from the cutthroat SOBs we raced against up here.</D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is the excerpt from <A href=3D"http://phrfne.org/" target=3D=
_blank rel=3Dnofollow>PHRFNE.org</A>:</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>"It is the intention of PHRF-NE to handicap boats in an as-built confi=
guration. PHRF-NE will adjust the handicaps of boats that have been altered=
from the as- built configuration to completely compensate for any expected=
speed advantage. Variations must be reported to the Chief Handicapper so t=
hat the Fleet can be more accurately handicapped."<BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv740517234gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Arthu=
r Kelley <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/c=
ompose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=
=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net"><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com=
/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.net</A></A>></SPA=
N> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dyiv740517234gmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MAR=
GIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oops - sorry I mis-spoke. The water =
heater is only 15 lbs. It's spelled out in the rules.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Art</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGI=
N-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=
=3Dakelley@optonline.net href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:akelley@optonline.net">Arthur Kelley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dfrers-list@lists.frer=
s33.com href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@l=
ists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-li=
st@lists.frers33.com"><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=
=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A></=
A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 27, 2010 8:=
27 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [frers-list]Origo stove=
and oven</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The weight would be 40 lbs and is on the opposite side of the bulkhead=
of the ice box. I sure we would figure out something if you came to a one =
design event. We definitely want an inclusive fleet but want to protect all=
owners against someone who just wants to beat the rules. If you race only =
PHRF then the one design prescriptions go out the window. However to mainta=
in resale and protect the future owner if they want to do one design we sug=
gest keeping changes modest and reversable. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 7:15 PM, FRANCIS ALBERT <<A href=3D"http://=
us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" target=3D_bla=
nk rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:fxalbert@prodigy.net"><A href=3D"http:/=
/us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfxalbert@prodigy.net" target=3D_bl=
ank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:fxalbert@prodigy.net">fxalbert@prodigy=
.net</A></A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think Arthur hits the spirt of the rule along with the letter of it.=
However, on my boat I not only didn't get the water heater, I don't =
even have the shelf he's talking about so yikes what kind of weight would I=
be adding. Anyone know what the water heater weighs? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Looks like I may not truck the boat up to Newport anytime soon.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank Albert</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- On <B>Wed, 10/27/10, Arthur Kelley <I><<A href=3D"http://us.mc5=
22.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank re=
l=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net"><A href=3D"http://us.=
mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank=
rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.=
net</A></A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Arthur Kelley <<A href=3D"http://us.mc52=
2.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank rel=
=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net"><A href=3D"http://us.m=
c522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dakelley@optonline.net" target=3D_blank =
rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:akelley@optonline.net">akelley@optonline.n=
et</A></A>><BR>Subject: Re: [frers-list]Origo stove and oven<BR>To: "<A =
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.fre=
rs33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists=
.frers33.com"><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfre=
rs-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto=
:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-list@lists.frers33.com</A></A>" <<A=
href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.fr=
ers33.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow
ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com"><A href=3D"http://us.mc522=
.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dfrers-list@lists.frers33.com" target=3D_bla=
nk rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:frers-list@lists.frers33.com">frers-lis=
t@lists.frers33.com</A></A>><BR>Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 4:32 =
PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Looking at the rules as spelled out in the Word doc on the site:</DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18px; FONT-FAMILY: Times">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 54px">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; FONT-ST=
YLE: italic">5.</DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18px; LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FON=
T-STYLE: italic">If the hot water heater (15 lbs) or fuel tank (40 lbs, @1/=
4 full) or oven (40 lbs excluding two burner stove top) have been permanent=
ly moved, removed, or not obtained when the boat was built, a weight equal =
to the item shall be affixed in its intended location during all racing eve=
nts.</SPAN></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>A few important principles come out. </DIV>
<DIV>1. It does not allow that the stove can be removed, only the oven. We =
can discuss how to handle a missing stove in another thread if necessary.&n=
bsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2. The oven is assumed to be replaceable with 40 lbs of weight. <=
/DIV>
<DIV>3. Substituted weight must be affixed in the intended location. <=
/DIV>
<DIV>4. Anyone want to pull out their fuel tank?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>#3 means that hot water heater substitute weight for example, cannot b=
e consolidated to the bilge, but must be in the lazarette on the shelf wher=
e the heater would have been. With regards to the oven I suspect it is gene=
rally agreed that the weight can be placed in the space below the stove not=
necessarily bolted to the bottom of the stove. However it should be noted =
that safety, not only the letter of the rules suggest (require?) that the w=
eights be affixed so that in the event of a knock down that they do not bec=
ome life threatening projectiles. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We need to be mindful that the one design rules are designed to ensure=
that an owner who cruises the boat can remain competitive with another boa=
t which is used exclusively for racing. It is not designed to be a strategy=
for removing a bunch of distributed weight and consolidating it centerline=
below the waterline. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Art Kelley</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Oct 27, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Neal Melanson <<A href=3D"http://u=
s.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_b=
lank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
e?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=
=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gmail.com"=
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:neal.melanson@gmail.com">=
<A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dneal.melanson@gma=
il.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:neal.melanson@gmai=
l.com">neal.melanson@gmail.com</A></A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>...lets all check the Class rules before we start on any weight saving=
programs. I started a fire storm years ago over PBO Backstays and Ca=
rbon Fibre Rudders.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Rod Stright <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A hr=
ef=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" =
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.co=
m/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A>=
<A href=3D"http://us.mc811.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink=
.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow></A><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.yah=
oo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=
ymailto=3D"mailto:StrightR@eastlink.ca"><A href=3D"http://us.mc522.mail.ya=
hoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DStrightR@eastlink.ca" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollo=
w ymailto=3D"mailto:StrightR@eastlink.ca">StrightR@eastlink.ca</A></A>><=
/SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-L=
EFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV lang=3DEN-CA>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Anyone interested in purchasing an Origo stove and oven for the Frers 33, l=
ike new condition seldom used. Intend to replace with an Origo two bu=
rner stove, would consider a trade.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
</SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Rod</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
Equinox</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'serif'">=
902-444-0016</SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>=
</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></ta=
ble><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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